Clairaudience/Clairvoyance

[Boddynock]

Also, let me just put this rumor to bed right now... I play a high lvl sneak, and I only use like a +2 hide/MS ring and the +3 boots, I don't have the feats at all, and I just max the skills... And guess what, I have no issue hiding from absolutely anything in PVE. It is a myth that a sneak has to sacrifice AC for PVE effectiveness. I would also like to point out that my HIPster, at lvl 30, will have high fourties AC in nothing but +2 hide/MS gear...with just combat expertise, not even improved...

[mrm3ntalist]

Also, let me just put this rumor to bed right now... I play a high lvl sneak, and I only use like a +2 hide/MS ring and the +3 boots, I don't have the feats at all, and I just max the skills... And guess what, I have no issue hiding from absolutely anything in PVE. It is a myth that a sneak has to sacrifice AC for PVE effectiveness. I would also like to point out that my HIPster, at lvl 30, will have high fourties AC in nothing but +2 hide/MS gear...with just combat expertise, not even improved...

There are two sides, which you ignore to see. How is +20 on listen helps you in PVE again? I am certain you will be fine without it

[thids]

Eliminating the effectiveness of amplify on anyone but pure caster bards grants relative safety to sneaks. How much is a DC for the amplify wand? A DC on a spell that lasts a few rounds?

The only situation in which listeners had blanket safety before was if they spammed their amplify wand constantly. Making the wands of amplify near useless is not the solution. The reason for this change to Amplify is "moving closer to pnp" from what I have read... Alright, let's move closer to pnp. Enchanted skill bonuses should not stack. Let's do this. Let's see how many sneaks have safety against those who just invest full points into listen. Let's see how many sneaks have their idea of how sneaks are roleplayed absolutely shattered by pnp rules. Yeah, let's move towards pnp more please. Then we can have all the +4 hide/ms items you guys want

[chad878262]

Also, let me just put this rumor to bed right now... I play a high lvl sneak, and I only use like a +2 hide/MS ring and the +3 boots, I don't have the feats at all, and I just max the skills... And guess what, I have no issue hiding from absolutely anything in PVE. It is a myth that a sneak has to sacrifice AC for PVE effectiveness. I would also like to point out that my HIPster, at lvl 30, will have high fourties AC in nothing but +2 hide/MS gear...with just combat expertise, not even improved...

Try sneaking past Rock Monsters (crit immune, bad business to take on as a low str sneak) in the Nashkel Mines... Forget Durlags all together. How about the Yuan-Ti? Thinking you might meet a hidden assassin or two, hope you have free action or high fort saves... The big snake thing in the Naga lair? nope. Not sure where you are going PVE, but if you don't get in to the high 50's at least you will be spotted in almost all low epic area's. Less than low-mid 60's and you can still be spotted. Duralgs is kind of moot because no amount of stealth will protect you (or at least none I have obtained, though upper 70's might give you an extra second or two)...

[Boddynock]

Using camouflage to boost only one skill out of detection range mean we have half as many chances to detect you, so already a huge boost there, and pass without trace gives another +4 move silently, bring that number up to 79. And, for the sake of you doing what you should do when sneaking up on people... let's add your d20, which you DO get if you set them hostile. And what we really end up at is you get detected if the listener rolls a twenty and you roll a 1-4.
Which actually sounds perfectly reasonable.

Pass without a trace is +6. You understand that we are talking about a detector with nothing but a maxed listen and two wands, against someone who hides that sacrificed everything ( feats, items etc )? How is that reasonable? ...

What you probably dont know is that the +10 bonus from camouflage was asked to be lowered as well.

From the spell description of pass without trace on our very own forum...(http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49037)

The subject or subjects can move through any type of terrain and leave neither footprints nor scent. Tracking the subjects is becomes difficult by nonmagical means. (Hide +2, Move Silently +4)

And...yeah, magic, temporary, reactive spells, so yes, reasonable. Magic does powerful things, typically for a short amount of time, and the more powerful the effects, generally shorter the duration.

[mrm3ntalist]

Eliminating the effectiveness of amplify on anyone but pure caster bards grants relative safety to sneaks. How much is a DC for the amplify wand? A DC on a spell that lasts a few rounds?

The only situation in which listeners had blanket safety before was if they spammed their amplify wand constantly. Making the wands of amplify near useless is not the solution. The reason for this change to Amplify is "moving closer to pnp" from what I have read... Alright, let's move closer to pnp. Enchanted skill bonuses should not stack. Let's do this. Let's see how many sneaks have safety against those who just invest full points into listen. Let's see how many sneaks have their idea of how sneaks are roleplayed absolutely shattered by pnp rules. Yeah, let's move towards pnp more please. Then we can have all the +4 hide/ms items you guys want

Even if the wands were not available, you still can get the same bonus by equiping some items - which now you dont have to. Or even better, get a feat as well. Noone is asking for the wands to go away.

As far as your suggestion, that would be a more fair thing to do, than what we currently have. With your suggested change, any sneak would know that there is no need to play a sneak on this server and would be a waste of time.

[mrm3ntalist]

From the spell description of pass without trace on our very own forum...(http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49037)

The subject or subjects can move through any type of terrain and leave neither footprints nor scent. Tracking the subjects is becomes difficult by nonmagical means. (Hide +2, Move Silently +4)

Cast the spell and do something for a change. You might learn something.

[Deathgrowl]

As far as your suggestion, that would be a more fair thing to do, than what we currently have. With your suggested change, any sneak would know that there is no need to play a sneak on this server and would be a waste of time.

I'd still play a sneak.

[mrm3ntalist]

As far as your suggestion, that would be a more fair thing to do, than what we currently have. With your suggested change, any sneak would know that there is no need to play a sneak on this server and would be a waste of time.

I'd still play a sneak.

Yes, the same way you play a wizard.

[Boddynock]

Also, let me just put this rumor to bed right now... I play a high lvl sneak, and I only use like a +2 hide/MS ring and the +3 boots, I don't have the feats at all, and I just max the skills... And guess what, I have no issue hiding from absolutely anything in PVE. It is a myth that a sneak has to sacrifice AC for PVE effectiveness. I would also like to point out that my HIPster, at lvl 30, will have high fourties AC in nothing but +2 hide/MS gear...with just combat expertise, not even improved...

Try sneaking past Rock Monsters (crit immune, bad business to take on as a low str sneak) in the Nashkel Mines... Forget Durlags all together. How about the Yuan-Ti? Thinking you might meet a hidden assassin or two, hope you have free action or high fort saves... The big snake thing in the Naga lair? nope. Not sure where you are going PVE, but if you don't get in to the high 50's at least you will be spotted in almost all low epic area's. Less than low-mid 60's and you can still be spotted. Duralgs is kind of moot because no amount of stealth will protect you (or at least none I have obtained, though upper 70's might give you an extra second or two)...

I do sneak past rock beasts...and Yuan-ti... And I'm not even lvl 30. And the worm in the dragon lair is literally a one off, it is one monster in one location. You just cherry picked all the spots that are more difficult that average. Sneak should not be an all access pass to anywhere you want to go with absolute safety.

And my hide/MS is one 48/46...I do just fine. Like I said, all that is a myth.

@Deathgrowl: Your bias lies with whichever character you favor more. Everyone has bias, literally everyone, unless you aren't human.

And to whoever suggested non-detection be an available counter to these spells. I say two things, first, yes,why is it not already? And second, isn't the fact that it can be put on a wand the same problem as others have with amplify?

[mrm3ntalist]

One last thing before i get banned...

When it comes to mechanics... L2P

[Snarfy]

The reason for this change to Amplify is "moving closer to pnp" from what I have read...

Funny thing about that is... there WAS NO change to amplify. It still gives +20 listen. Which makes me wonder what all this arguing is even about.

C&C was the one that was changed(at least the bard/wizard/sorcerer version was). Whether or not the changes to C&C were made more PnP(??), and speaking as a player of a sneak, I'm not a big fan of how C&C was changed. Which was...

Clairaudience/Clairvoyance requires the caster to choose a spot or listen buff, but gives no bonus to spot or listen, and instead causes those around the caster to roll a will save versus the casters DC.

... which, more or less, fills the combat log with spam and tells everyone in the vicinity each others will saves. How the actual mechanics of C&C work now, or how it's supposed to be used, either in RP, PVP, or in PVE, is completely beyond me at this point.... which is only slightly more beyond me than why the stealth/detection dead horse keeps getting resurrected here.

[Deathgrowl]

@Deathgrowl: Your bias lies with whichever character you favor more. Everyone has bias, literally everyone, unless you aren't human.

Rofl, are you saying objectivity is impossible?

[thids]

My suggestion was sarcastic, obviously (the one about skill stacking). You have moved amplify closer to pnp while ignoring the fact that in pnp you don't get to stack gear for an amount greater than that 20 which amplify grants. In pnp, you can have your feats and your +10 from dex, and still you would have to roll a d20 against the listeners d20 in order to pass the check. You have invested so much into your sneaking abilities, while all he invested was full skill points, and still, you would have to roll. Taking one aspect from pnp, while not taking into account the pnp environment compared to the BG environment is not exactly fair, even if your end goal is more fairness. This last statement can be applied to other parts of this big update as well I guess.

The reason for this change to Amplify is "moving closer to pnp" from what I have read...

Funny thing about that is... there was no change to amplify. It still gives +20 listen. Which makes me wonder what all this arguing is even about.

What??? Why are people arguing about amplify and amplify wands? God damn it, I wasted 2 hours of my time following this crap.


edit: Oh just to clarify, for the sake of bias discussion, my currently only active character 92 spot and 88 listen without wands. HAVE FUN TRYING TO SNEAK PAST ME.

Seriously though, for the sake of bias discussion, it's 0 listen and 32 spot. So I do not care one way or another about amplify wands for my personal use. Though I do not think that if I played a 33 listen 0 wisdom character with a stack of amplify wands would necessarily mean I have a strong bias, just like playing a sneak does not necessarily mean anyone else has a bias.

[Boddynock]

From the spell description of pass without trace on our very own forum...(http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49037)

The subject or subjects can move through any type of terrain and leave neither footprints nor scent. Tracking the subjects is becomes difficult by nonmagical means. (Hide +2, Move Silently +4)

Cast the spell and do something for a change. You might learn something.

Aren't you QUALITY CONTROL? Does the quality of the information our players have access to not merit the attention of QC? Is taking the time to look up and read things somehow of lesser value than another form of learning? I literally just pointed out an error that QC should have just fixed, and your reply was to "Cast the spell and I might learn something..."

I take a HUGE issue with the idea that our players aren't even allowed to expand their knowledge of the server's unique content, because the posts explaining them, even when they take the time to look them up, are incorrect. Don't you sit on your high horse and get snippy with me when the problem lies with a lack of QUALITY in the available information.

I take an even bigger issue with the implication that someone taking their time to look up details and read information on available spells, classes, etc, is somehow wasting their time. You should be encouraging people to educate themselves, and to achieve that QC should be making sure the information they have access to is quality information. This would produce better players and increase the overall education, and therefore health, of the server. You should, and I mean this quite literally, be ashamed of that statement. Your failure to address and catch a mistake on the spell description does not equate to being allowed to toss out insulting or derisive comments when people read the information they are given.