Law Clarification

[AstralisAdept]

Ok.

Let me stop you right there.

I would never do any of this, whether it is in my PCs behavior or not, because it is a douche move..

1. You can kill ANY summons at ANY time.

2. The ridiculous "leave or die" RP out can be handed to a player any time.... and then a thumping would commence. It's lame, but it is allowed.

3. The fact the summons/companion (except dog) is in the purview of the guards, that is god modding. So if you have a Hellhound right outside FAI entrance... you are godmodding, because the guards would kill it...and probably the player as well.


Players should be respectful of others, but if someone is breaking your immersion outside FAI or anywhere... ignore them. If it REALLY bothers you. Take a screenshot and PM the DM group here on the forums.


It just feels like this thread is going on in a cycle.... You can look up my posts where a "paladin" killed my Druid's dog companion because he was in FAI. He was wrong on all counts as he did not do the following:

1. Mind the PvP initiation rules, as there was no RP out or consent given"
2. The dog is not considered to be "monstrous or a wild animal"
3. He attacked something considered to be a player (companions are to be treated as players) in front of the guards, therefore godmodding
4. He self appointed himself to "clean up" the wrong outside FAI.

I was pissed, mostly cause the dog's name was removed after the death and never came back.

But the rules are there as a guideline. We, the community help police ourselves and educate the unintiated, and report those who refuse to conform and let the DMs make the ruling of right or wrong and execute the punishment, if any.

In closing, relax. Not like anyone lost any xp, gold or equipment. Retcon the event and just move forward.

The overall attempt here is a bit of education. The hostility against other players summons/familiars/companions is IMO out of control(baring the obvious necromancy etc). I feel people are using this as a loop hole to pvp, and grief people. The personal incidents I've been in have been ether resolved at the lowest level by reasonable people, or reported to DMs. My wifes incident resulted in her total disinterest with the server.. The other random people I've seen this happen to, is their business.

YOU reading this may totally not be responsible for anything wrong, that's obvious(for some reason it almost feels like it needs to be said). Yet there is a large amount of this happening. I think people should know and think about it.

[NegInfinity]

Indeed. Just as well attacking a player for said summon/companion/familar would equally be godmodding and it needs to stop. They should report it to DMs etc. etc.

That's allowed, as long as pvp rules are followed.

First there are server and pvp rules. Those affect you and they're absolute. Do not attack without pvp consent, do not attack familiars/companionss without pvp consent, everything else is kos.

Then there are in-game laws. Those affect your character, if said character is caught, and they are not absolute. Characters can pretend to be guards, lie to you, claim that you're breaking a law, commit crimes and lie to you and that's fine. In a lawless area someone could totally approach you dressed like a flaming fist and claim that you've commited a crime and need to pay a fine. Flaming fisst would eventually react to that, of course.

Godmodding is ignoring npcs. For example, pretending to be a guard, commiting crime in front of an actual guard. Because your character would be caught. Screenshot and post to dm team, because those instancess are breach of server rules that affect you. Of course, you could probably do that under dm supervision (meaning DM would take control of the npc guards in order to react to your shenanigans and will have to be warned in advance).

You are taking these rules completely out of context and also you keep contradicting yourself by saying it is not in lawed lands then saying it is by posting these rules

How so, they're perfectly in context. A player has no right OOC or IC to pvp someone under the excuse it is "against the law here".

They have the right to do that.
Any summon that is not an animal companion or a familiar can be killed on the spot.
Any underdark companion/familiar can be killed on the spot.

For companion/familiar, they can approach and start acting hostile through non-combat means. They're required to give you an option to RP out of combat - you should usually be able to weasel out of combat through talking. But they are allowed to approach you, claim that your cat familiar is a long lost son of asmodeous and therefore you should die and your heart should be sacrificed to the morninglord, for the greater good.

You can look up my posts where a "paladin" killed my Druid's dog companion because he was in FAI. He was wrong on all counts as he did not do the following:

Report to the dm. Paladin code is strict, when they mess up they lose ALL the divine powers and can fall. However, that requires DM intervention, and unless you report the incident to DMs, they won't know about it.

Alternatively, hire an assassin to murder the paladin. That can lead to lots of fun.

Also, at all times try to keep in mind that your character is not you. That helps when you need to deal with conflicting situations.

[Hawke]

You can look up my posts where a "paladin" killed my Druid's dog companion because he was in FAI. He was wrong on all counts as he did not do the following:

Report to the dm. Paladin code is strict, when they mess up they lose ALL the divine powers and can fall. However, that requires DM intervention, and unless you report the incident to DMs, they won't know about it.

LOL neg,,,, that was a LONG time ago, and was handled. ole boy went bat$*(& crazy for some reason. I still mention it occasionally on IRC

[AstralisAdept]

They have the right to do that.
Any summon that is not an animal companion or a familiar can be killed on the spot.
Any underdark companion/familiar can be killed on the spot.

For companion/familiar, they can approach and start acting hostile through non-combat means. They're required to give you an option to RP out of combat - you should usually be able to weasel out of combat through talking. But they are allowed to approach you, claim that your cat familiar is a long lost son of asmodeous and therefore you should die and your heart should be sacrificed to the morninglord, for the greater good.

In the case of a Druid out front of FAI with his spider out.

-Familiars and Animal Companions are considered an extension of the player character. Normal PvP rules must be followed if you wish to attack Familiars and Animal Companions.
However, the owner of a Monstrous Humanoid, Hellhound, or Worg animal companion consents to PvP if s/he is seen on the surface with that animal companion.

- We are a business, however, and so will not allow brawling right before our gates which could harm paying customers. ((OOC: This means PVP at or before the FAI gate should be DM supervised as Bentley's guards will intervene to protect his business))

-Never may one enforce the laws of the keep without the involvement of the Friendly Arm's guardsmen.

Please explain why its okay for someone to say "Gah! Thats against the law sir! *smashes spider to bits".

The druid first off is considered godmodding by disregarding the guard reactions to the law. The player smashing the spider is godmodding by brawling in front of guards, and god modding by breaking the FAI law of "Never may one enforce the laws of the keep without the involvement of the Friendly Arm's guardsmen." in front of the guards.

Why not send them a tell and explain theissue, if they are unreasonable ignore them and report to a DM?

Where in the rules does it say "Loop hole! Totally get to twin maximized fireball this druid in the face!"?

[AstralisAdept]

Even worse is the concept of of people doing this over sentient lawful good summons.

"Git yur angel outa here before I uphold justice and hellball your face!"

[NegInfinity]

that was a LONG time ago, and

My mind-reading is malfunctioning today, and I was not in the mood for digging through the forum to find out WHEN that happened. The adivce still applies - report to DMs.

In the case of a Druid out front of FAI with his spider out.

I think at this point several people already quoted proper pvp protocol. Have you read the rules?

Please explain why its okay for someone to say "Gah! Thats against the law sir! *smashes spider to bits".

Why should I explain "why it is okay" when it has nothing in common with anything I posted earlier and is not an example of proper behavior?

It would be nice if you cut to the chase and said what exactly you're trying to achieve here.

The thread has been going on for at least 5 pages. You got your explanations, several times over. What else do you want?

Even worse is the concept of of people doing this over sentient lawful good summons.

"Git yur angel outa here before I uphold justice and hellball your face!"

Your angel is neither familiar nor an animal companion, and an evil character will have plenty of reasons to kill the "winged bastard" on the spot. Familiars/companions are extension of your character. Your angel is not. In the same way, good or neutral character can absolutely murder thaumaturge's erinyes.

[AstralisAdept]

I think at this point several people already quoted proper pvp protocol. Have you read the rules?

[NegInfinity]

I think at this point several people already quoted proper pvp protocol. Have you read the rules?

Could ask you the same.

I already explained how someone should/would usually go about initiating pvp based on presence of familiar/companion. I also provided links to the rules.

Have you read any of this or did I waste the time here?

[AstralisAdept]

I think at this point several people already quoted proper pvp protocol. Have you read the rules?

Could ask you the same.

I already explained how someone should/would usually go about initiating pvp based on presence of familiar/companion. I also provided links to the rules.

Have you read any of this or did I waste the time here?

Aaaah trolling I see.

[Grimdark Hitman]

Have you read any of this or did I waste the time here?

...it would seem some time has indeed been wasted...

[NegInfinity]

Aaaah trolling I see.

*facepalm*

[DM Nilbog]

LOCKED

[DM Ditto]

With regards to PvP rules and animal companions/familiars/summons:

<< Familiars, Companions, Summonings and Shapeshifting >>

• Familiars and Animal Companions are considered an extension of the player character. Normal PvP rules must be followed if you wish to attack Familiars and Animal Companions.
  However, the owner of a Monstrous Humanoid, Hellhound, or Worg animal companion consents to PvP if s/he is seen on the surface with that animal companion.

• Summons can be attacked on sight, but normal PvP rules must be followed for the summoner (the player). The owner of the summons must also follow normal PvP rules in order to attack the killer of his or her summons. (Summons include any creature that can be summoned through a spell or an ability, and that is not a Familiar or an Animal Companion: These include angels, devils, elementals, and undead, among others.)

• Shapeshifting: While polymorphed into a form that is not your own, you are perceived as being what you have become. This is PVP consent, unless you revert back to your natural form or RP that you are not a threat to the player that happens upon you in a shapeshifted form.

To answer the opening post/question of this topic (clarification on IC laws concerning familiars, animal companions, and summoned creatures outside civilized areas) please refer to DM Dialectic's response:

Chiming in here to say that the transition note regarding Flaming Fist keeping an eye on the FAI is outdated. The outskirts of the Friendly Arm Inn that's not in front of the portcullis is considered a lawless place.

Here is a general rule of thumb that I use, but by no means reflects the entire DM team. If there are no NPC guards on the map, then it is pretty much lawless. If there are NPC guards, then there is law. The FAI is somewhat of an exception to this as Inside the walls of the FAI and just ourside the main gate are what Bently's gaurds patrol.

DMs have been known to have archers shoot at summons or polymorphed characters that run by but those are typically Undead or demon/devil in nature.

That being said, with all the issues with the new updates, I have been more lient for people who pop in at the spawn point with summons as they test the spells in the nexus, and some are bugged and they can't get rid of them till they rest, and they have to go in game to rest.

A few more notes on IC NPC Duchal law enforcement in the wild areas of the server between Baldur's Gate and Northern Amn, with the Friendly Arm Inn as a different political island between.

-The Grand Dukes of Baldur's Gate have a strong political claim to the lands inside the walls of Baldur's Gate as well as the Farmlands nearby the city (these Farmlands and the major entry points to them that are NPC guarded by guards loyal to the Dukes or Flaming Fist are known as the "environs" of Baldur's Gate), as well as the lands all the way south to the border with Northern Amn on the north bank of the river north of Beregost. The western border of this claim is the Sea of Swords coast and may even extend into the sea as well. The eastern border runs west and north of Gullykin in the southeast and without clarity (to the public IC) either goes through or around the Woods of Sharpteeth to the north until hitting the River Chiontar and then follows rough proximity of the river west until back in the area of Baldur's Gate, encompassing the Fields of the Dead on the way. The Friendly Arm Inn would be an island of non-Duchal political claim within this region, but the ruler of the Friendly Arm Inn is on very friendly terms with the Grand Dukes of Baldur's Gate.

-If a major foreign and non-friendly power were to start to politically interfere in this area of Duchal claim without permission (say the government of Amn tried to setup a military base in the wilds between the Friendly Arm Inn and Wyrm's Crossing without Duchal permission), the Grand Dukes would likely defend this claim with the threat of force or actual force. This political dimension is different from whether Duchal law is regularly enforced in wild areas claimed by the Dukes.

-As DM Ditto implied, outside of regularly patrolled areas by NPCs loyal to the Dukes or the Flaming Fist, Duchal law is not regularly enforced in all areas of their political claim that are "wild" (as in not regularly patrolled areas by NPCs loyal to the Dukes or the Flaming Fist, which in game terms means that there are no permanent NPC guards on a game map for it to be considered an entirely wild map area) and alleged crimes in wild areas not regularly patrolled by NPC guards loyal to the Dukes, but still within the area of Duchal political claim, are often not prosecuted by Duchal magistrates either. It is certainly possible though that if an occasional Flaming Fist patrol happened to go past a necromancer with a skeleton buddy on the Trade Way in the wilds claimed by the Dukes that they would be held to account under Duchal law.

-In the case of the Friendly Arm Inn, as DM Nephilim implied, inside the walls of the FAI and just outside the main gate are where the Friendly Arm Inn guards frequently patrol and therefore where the laws of the Friendly Arm Inn, which are distinct from Duchal laws of Baldur's Gate, are enforced IC. Where there may be other NPC guards in otherwise wild map areas could mean that NPC enforced law applies there as well, but what NPC enforced law depends on the NPCs guarding.

-Keep in mind that Duchal law IC is ONLY enforceable and judicially processed by NPCs loyal to the Grand Dukes. There are no player characters able to charge, prosecute, convict, and punish other player characters for violations of Duchal law IC. This being said, NPC guards and NPC public areas in civilized areas of Duchal control should not be metagamed to assume that just because a DM was not around that no one saw an IC violation of Duchal law and did not react IC. Doing otherwise is in fact an OOC violation of NPC metagaming and godmoding rules. Player characters can certainly act as witnesses and send in reports to the Duchal authorities on any legal wrongdoing allegedly seen in regularly NPC guarded areas where Duchal law is typically enforced, but only NPCs (DMs) determine the legal outcome of Duchal law, not players.

As a result, the best way to deal with reporting perceived IC law violations when a DM is not present on the scene in game is to PM the DM team on the forums screenshots and an IC/OOC report of what happened. The best way to IC violate the law of a local NPC guarded area without metagaming or godmoding NPCs and violating server rules is to PM the DM team with a player request asking to do so with DM permission first: http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=48188.