Brawler: Sacred Fist vs Monk

[joleda]

I'm looking at making a brawler type twerp and would like some ideas. I don't care about magic.

I've been doing some research on here and it appears that some people think that the Sacred Fist is a really good PrC. Is this thought entirely due to caster levels?

The Monk gets bonus AC at levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30, for a total of 6. It also gets bonus AC from the Wisdom modifier. If a Monk/SF wears Medium Armor, does he lose both bonuses to AC?

The Sacred Fist gets bonus AC at levels 1, 5, and 10, for a total of 3. This is much less than what a shield would provide.

It seems that a Monk or Sacred Fist gets less AC than a twerp utilizing armor and shield. If the character is basically non-magical, wouldn't adding Sacred Fist be detrimental to AC even more than Monk?

Am I missing something?

[trogers2]

A monk gains 1 AC every 5 levels, plus 1 AC for every point in wisdom they have; Sacrid fist is slightly different but it works out the same.

The benefit of the sacrid fist is the fist damage stacks with monk; however because of the 3/3/3 rule you will ALWAYS miss out on some fist damage as cleric is needed to get SF, which requires 3 levels.

SF can't use armour, that includes shields - if you do - you lose all monk abilities. The SF would give you access to level 5 spells, but it is nothing epic; OK for the odd buff though.

It is worth noting that SF also has higher BAB, while monk only has mid BAB; SF also have low will saving throws while monk have no low saving throws.

Also you do not get stunning fists from SF and you can lose upto 13 spell res from diamond soul, your DC of monk abilities i.e. stunning fist is also effected by monk level.

Honestly, it really depends on preference - as a SF myself; I am finding it difficult mainly because of the 3/3/3 rule, my build will only really shine at level 30 - right now I am stuck with low damage and waiting longer for my monk abilities.

If I were you, I'd go monk all the way for max fist damage and abilities (upt o 20) this leaves you with 10 levels to multi-class with, if you wish - I hear fist of the forest is a good one; or monk of the long death. SF is really only worth it for the spell list.

[zyztem]

Just throw in an idea.
With the new hierophant class you can get up to +3 extra caster levels.
So how about 8clerk/6monk/10SC/6Hierophant

That way you get 29CL + 16 levels of monk goodies.

[Endelyon]

I'm looking at making a brawler type twerp and would like some ideas. I don't care about magic.

I've been doing some research on here and it appears that some people think that the Sacred Fist is a really good PrC. Is this thought entirely due to caster levels?

The Monk gets bonus AC at levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30, for a total of 6. It also gets bonus AC from the Wisdom modifier. If a Monk/SF wears Medium Armor, does he lose both bonuses to AC?

The Sacred Fist gets bonus AC at levels 1, 5, and 10, for a total of 3. This is much less than what a shield would provide.

It seems that a Monk or Sacred Fist gets less AC than a twerp utilizing armor and shield. If the character is basically non-magical, wouldn't adding Sacred Fist be detrimental to AC even more than Monk?

Am I missing something?

No, you're not missing anything about the base AC. Monk gets AC + wisdom bonus + dex bonus + tumble + feats + gear. A mithril fullplate is 8 AC + 3 dex, and a tower shield is 4 AC. So to equal this as a 30 monk, you need at least +9 between your dex and wisdom modifiers to equal a character wearing a fullplate and holding a tower shield. And you should know that a Sacred Fist on our server cannot even wear light armor, much less medium, and will end up with significantly less standing AC than a monk. However, with cleric spells you can usually make up the difference, and will end up with far more AC than most characters wearing plate (but again, not as much as a Cleric in plate with a tower shield would have.)

This is just how monks work. It's their dynamic. They're not a fighter in fullplate so they're not as defensible as one, USUALLY. They use extraordinary abilities to almost equal one without wearing armor or holding a shield.

Sacred Fists is an amazingly powerful PRC -- but at the end of the day, it is a VERY high-magic caster class. The overall strategy is "cast spells for 2 minutes, then fight." To be honest, it's really quite tedious in a certain way. The high damage and survivability comes with high maintenance, but you will be practically invincible with the right build.

Here's an example of Sacred Fist gameplay. This is 11 monk/9 cleric/10 sacred fist pre-dispel fix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEbwc3z7VaI

If you want a regular monk with high AC (more than a Fighter or something could achieve), you want to go all points into wisdom/greater wisdom, and take the feat "Intuitive Attack" so that your wisdom is added to your AB bonus.

EDIT: Tower Shields are 4 AC. Thanks chambordini.

[joleda]

A Sacred Fist with no monk levels can't wear Light Armor and still get the AC bonus?

From Sacred Fist on Wiki:
AC bonus
When unencumbered, wearing no or light armor and not using a shield a sacred fist gains a +1 AC bonus. This increases to +2 at level 5 and +3 at 10.

[chad878262]

On our server I believe sacred fist had been modified due to the bug where it allowed monk/sf to wear light armor and still get all monk bonuses. Therefore sacred fist cannot wear armor, though with enough caster levels you can make any cloth +5...

[joleda]

Thanks for the clarification. So a Sacred Fist with no Monk levels can't wear armor and doesn't get the Wisdom bonus to AC? Got it.

I don't play casters so I'll avoid this clsss.

[chad878262]

Yeah, sacred fist is really specific to a monk/cleric build...without monk you have to take four feats just to qualify...with monk it requires only one feat.