Balancing Bards and FS?

[Thorsson]

Removing BAB increase from Divine Power will reduce cleric's AB from... 60 to 51 which ironically is the AB of a pure STR barbarian in Epic Rage. But yeah, after this nobody would play clerics anymore with so horrible AB and 9 circles of divine magic making one immortal.

You'd better show how you get to 51, because you are obviously making a bunch of assumptions there. But in any case it's not Barbarians people will be comparing to.

[Steve]

We shall now see a lot more full casters and a lot less [everything]...

I think this will be the case in general, going forward, since the Big Update. Though QC may mitigate it via upgrades to some classes as proposed (Swashbucklers, Barbarians, etc.), casters are not only currently the most powerful, they really have so many "options" to them, they're probably also the most engaging and fun to play.

I am not saying that diminishes the fun and options to non-casters, but at the end of the day, casters of all types, ALSO win in the power section...and I think most if not all of us know that a powerful build will net you more coin, more gear, more levels, mo' quicker!

I'll also bring up the aspect of medium role-play server, and since the Server is not labeled hard core, or even PnP-based, consider what changes are suggested in how it changes the paradigm, cause I think overall, few Players—and maybe also Staff—want to change the paradigm.

Essentially, I'm saying the current medium RP Server label provides an environment for Gaming of all types, which adds to why BGTSCC is so popular, and why many who have limited time to Game here, can actually get stuff in a relatively short timeframe (coin, gear, levels).

Heck...one can even get into Events and have Storylines carried by DMs!

Now, if I were to NOT think of what current paradigm of medium RP the Server is in, I'd make this suggestion in order to make Casters a bit more...difficult...and therefore, lessen their uber power:

1. Change the Server Clock as was voted on here.
2. Change spell duration to reflect a this (i.e. longer/shorter durations where appropriate)
3. Increase resting times overall—perhaps double or triple what they are now—but add unlimited Resting Zones, like inside Inns (not taverns ), and maybe at some well positioned campsites/outposts.

If, just like in DM events were resting is per permission, the general Server experience is that Casters must conserve their power (because of limited resting) and non-casters do not (relying on innate power/Feats), it would close the perceived gap between Classes (though bring the Server even more into a Group-necessary type of adventuring experience...and that will upset the soloists for sure).

Casters—both in PnP and in NWN2—tap into an unlimited source of power. In NWN2, however, that source is even less regulated, being at most, every 30 minutes (which is lvl 30 rest timer, righ?). Even if you doubled that rest timer, it would greatly change the Value difference between casters and non-casters, because Casters would always risk "burning out," while non-casters would not, yet, would utilize what the casters have to offer in magic...of course, the casters would then eventually need to rely on the non-casters to carry their worthless, spent, limp bodies back to an Inn for grog and a recharge of the batteries. lol.

But seriously folks—it isn't really about nerfing the power per Class, but the usage capabilities of that power, overall, for casters of all types.

[tankteddy]

Script in some wild and dead magic zones and I bet you fighters will take down FS any day of the week.

I honesty think you don't have to "nerf" a class or 2, but make the classes that are lacking in power stronger.
Though I have yet to see an issue with my rogue types aside from the 1-2 with spotter script.

My first time playing on the server I used a well build fighter build that would work perfectly ((aside from server changes)) When this build failed I switched to a rogue that even with a horrible build still lived longer and fought harder then my fighter.

Nerf can hurt a lot of build. Which is why NERFING BAD, while boosting a few underpowered or under used classes will help.

Take shadow dancer. Aside from 5 levels most don't go beyond that because loss of damage, add in 3d6 seek attack from 4-10 and it will see more use.

[matelener]

Removing BAB increase from Divine Power will reduce cleric's AB from... 60 to 51 which ironically is the AB of a pure STR barbarian in Epic Rage. But yeah, after this nobody would play clerics anymore with so horrible AB and 9 circles of divine magic making one immortal.

You'd better show how you get to 51, because you are obviously making a bunch of assumptions there. But in any case it's not Barbarians people will be comparing to.

Here you go, a random 51 AB barbarian http://nwn2db.com/build/?239772.
30 BAB + 16 STR Mod in Rage + 4 Weapon EB + 1 Epic Prowess.

But that comparison is not the point. The point is how stupidly high 60 AB is and that 51 AB is still damn good for a class, I'll remind again, that has 9 circles of divine magic. And ultimately, Cleric or FS would still be VERY playable in a melee role but maybe not as dominant as they are now.

I agree with you though that some people might jump to another OP build/class like also discussed in this thread bards. And such builds / classes should be nerfed as well. As someone said before it's definetely an easier job than buffing everything else (including changing the difficulty of the content).

I'm not advocating for the perfect balance among the classes which many pointed out is impossible to achieve. I'm just saying that there are some game-breaking classes and shortening the giantic gap in power between "them" and "others" would be beneficial to the server.

[NegInfinity]

I agree with you though that some people might jump to another OP build/class like also discussed in this thread bards. And such builds / classes should be nerfed as well. As someone said before it's definetely an easier job than buffing everything else (including changing the difficulty of the content).

Except that this is a wrong approach. Destructive nerf will disrupt somebody's gameplay. Even if the nerf is easy to implement. Do that a lot and people will start leaving.

Instead of destructive "easy" way, it would be better to go about it in "constructive" way, even though it may be harder.

Add more diverse zones, rebalance zones so there will be an area for every class. That way you won't destroy somebody's character/concept, and will keep everybody happy.

I'm against destroying somebody's character for "balance" reasons. Change the game world instead, so there will be a place to have fun for everybody.

The core of the server is community, not mechanics. Nerf (and destructive changes) hurts people and community. New zones, changes, new stuff (constructive changes) attracts more people.

Propositions like "let's balance bards/fs/whatever-class-somebody-thinks-is-OP" will ultimately hurt and kill the server if implemented.

[Thorsson]

Here you go...

I was talking about the Cleric...

[matelener]

Here you go...

I was talking about the Cleric...

30 BAB + 13 STR mod (30 STR unbuffed) + 5 GMW + 1 Bless + 1 Aid + 2 Recitation +
+ 2 battletide + 3 Divine Favour + 1 Prayer + 1 Epic Prowess + 1 Weapon Focus = 60

[Invoker]

I'm just saying that there are some game-breaking classes and shortening the giantic gap in power between "them" and "others" would be beneficial to the server.

There is something you're missing. In the specific, the number of "them" and "others", where "them" is really a LOT of classes & character concepts, and "others" are barbarian, swashbuckler and rogue-heavy characters.

You talk about FSs and Clerics (which are on two different levels already, although not far enough to be a problem at all), when in fact Bards, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, Fighter/DDs, WM/FBs (until this patch), archers, Warlocks, Monks and Ao knows how many builds in total can pwn every mob, and kill every boss the FSs can.

I posted the build types and power levels on page 1.

Here you go...

I was talking about the Cleric...

30 BAB + 13 STR mod (30 STR unbuffed) + 5 GMW + 1 Bless + 1 Aid + 2 Recitation +
+ 2 battletide + 3 Divine Favour + 1 Prayer + 1 Epic Prowess + 1 Weapon Focus = 60

No. Absolutely no way. If that's the way you use your Cleric, then you most certainly aren't performing well. That would fail hard even on a FS, to be honest.

By the time you cast your last 6 secs/lvl spells, some of the others are already halfway through. Not a chance, LOL.

You need to use one or two of the short term ones at a time, this kind of casters work on rotations. You included FOUR.

[matelener]

I'm just saying that there are some game-breaking classes and shortening the giantic gap in power between "them" and "others" would be beneficial to the server.

There is something you're missing. In the specific, the number of "them" and "others", where "them" is really a LOT of classes & character concepts, and "others" are barbarian, swashbuckler and rogue-heavy characters.

You talk about FSs and Clerics (which are on two different levels already, although not far enough to be a problem at all), when in fact Bards, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, Fighter/DDs, WM/FBs (until this patch), archers, Warlocks, Monks and Ao knows how many builds in total can pwn every mob, and kill every boss the FSs can.

I posted the build types and power levels on page 1.

30 BAB + 13 STR mod (30 STR unbuffed) + 5 GMW + 1 Bless + 1 Aid + 2 Recitation +
+ 2 battletide + 3 Divine Favour + 1 Prayer + 1 Epic Prowess + 1 Weapon Focus = 60

No. Absolutely no way. If that's the way you use your Cleric, then you most certainly aren't performing well. That would fail hard even on a FS, to be honest.

By the time you cast your last 6 secs/lvl spells, some of the others are already halfway through. Not a chance, LOL.

You need to use one or two of the short term ones at a time, this kind of casters work on rotations. You included FOUR.

First of all, I don't need 60 AB to fight 35 AC nagas so buffing like that against them (and 99.9% of bgtscc content) is indeed inefficient. But a full buff rotation will be a large DPS increase against a higher AC and higher HP enemy (this will be definetely true in case of the white dragon, probably in case of the dracolich and the balor). And having such options to increase AB and not needing to use them is maybe the definition of being "Over-Powered"?

Second of all, please don't assume I play a cleric without the extended spell. With that, the duration of my round / lvl spells at 30 CL is equal to 6 minutes per cast. To be fully buffed, I'm going to add two more short duration buffs: Stone Body and Regeneration. Then, I'm going to make sure I cast an extended Divine Favour right at the end as it lasts only 2 minutes. So, I'll waste 7 rounds buffing ( Prayer, Recitation, Battletide, Stone Body, Regeneration, Divine Power, Divine Favour) and that will make my first buff last... 5 minutes and 18 seconds out of the original 6 minutes. Pretty far from being "half-way through", I think. For your claim to happen, you'd have to be at around CL 15 and cast the non-extended version of these spells.

Third of all, I don't agree with your hierarchy of powerbuilds. In my book, bards, clerics and FSes are at least a tier above the others, solely filling the roles of top DPSes, tanks, healers and buffers / party supports. This becomes quite clear when you not only account "what" the builds can kill but also "how" they kill it. Dwarven Defender, for example, will be chopping a balor for ages in contrast to Bards / Clerics / Fses. Druids won't be ever able to solo the balor because of his damage reduction and in general polymorph effect limit a druid a lot. Some of the other builds might be able to solo it but not without a struggle and a high cost in consumables.

[Invoker]

First of all, I don't need 60 AB to fight 35 AC nagas so buffing like that against them (and 99.9% of bgtscc content) is indeed inefficient. But a full buff rotation will be a large DPS increase against a higher AC and higher HP enemy (this will be definetely true in case of the white dragon, probably in case of the dracolich and the balor). And having such options to increase AB and not needing to use them is maybe the definition of being "Over-Powered"?

I agree. However, without Divine Power, it will take you too many spells to even get to those bosses on a melee divine caster. I think your odds of making it are somewhat reduced, and it's time to UMD Mirror Images to begin with.

Also, compare the above with your former statement:

Removing BAB increase from Divine Power will reduce cleric's AB from... 60 to 51 which ironically is the AB of a pure STR barbarian in Epic Rage. But yeah, after this nobody would play clerics anymore with so horrible AB and 9 circles of divine magic making one immortal.

That puts into a more understandable context my former post.

Second of all, please don't assume I play a cleric without the extended spell. With that, the duration of my round / lvl spells at 30 CL is equal to 6 minutes per cast. To be fully buffed, I'm going to add two more short duration buffs: Stone Body and Regeneration. Then, I'm going to make sure I cast an extended Divine Favour right at the end as it lasts only 2 minutes. So, I'll waste 7 rounds buffing ( Prayer, Recitation, Battletide, Stone Body, Regeneration, Divine Power, Divine Favour) and that will make my first buff last... 5 minutes and 18 seconds out of the original 6 minutes. Pretty far from being "half-way through", I think. For your claim to happen, you'd have to be at around CL 15 and cast the non-extended version of these spells.

No, you won't. Unless that's the boss fight, and somehow you jaunted/skipped lots of content to get there. If you're actually "playing" the character, doing such a thing will leave you drained far earlier than it is convenient. My "claim" had a dose of sarcasm, but the truth of it is, you can't play like that for half an hour. Not even close. The point of the "barbarian with AB 51" is...he sort of keeps it.

Third of all, I don't agree with your hierarchy of powerbuilds. In my book, bards, clerics and FSes are at least a tier above the others, solely filling the roles of top DPSes, tanks, healers and buffers / party supports. This becomes quite clear when you not only account "what" the builds can kill but also "how" they kill it. Dwarven Defender, for example, will be chopping a balor for ages in contrast to Bards / Clerics / Fses. Druids won't be ever able to solo the balor because of his damage reduction and in general polymorph effect limit a druid a lot. Some of the other builds might be able to solo it but not without a struggle and a high cost in consumables.

I respect your opinion, but you don't out-dps Warlocks or WM/FB, heal more than Druids or support more than other casters, really. It kind of depends on the circumstances.

Dwarven Defender doesn't take as long as you think to kill stuff, especially since it has EW and doesn't buff. With your Bard/Cle/FSs, you have to buff "for ages" to even approach the Balor, and if you picked up EW it means he's going to Mord you naked right now.

Your claim Druid cannot solo the Balor is a tad on the wrong side, especially now. Fun fact is, it's much easier to kill the Dracolich on a Druid than on all the other classes you listed, especially now that you need to be YET ANOTHER follower of Istisha to get Evasion. Goes both ways, frand .

In conclusion, the reason why I don't give importance to "how you kill stuff" is, this is supposed to be an RPG. Players should pick the characters based on what they like to RP, and then make the mechanics work, somehow. In the hierarchy you don't agree with, it's quite clearly shown that you can do this just fine as is.

If then you're interested in speedclears, dmg benchmarks, structured PvP and whatnot, there are better games out there. I mean...FAR better. Without "RP out", with MMR, leagues, better UI, better graphics and so on. If one bothers with NWN2, it's usually because of the RP.

[matelener]

I agree. However, without Divine Power, it will take you too many spells to even get to those bosses on a melee divine caster. I think your odds of making it are somewhat reduced, and it's time to UMD Mirror Images to begin with.

I'll attempt to do that and come back to you on this one.

Quote:
Second of all, please don't assume I play a cleric without the extended spell. With that, the duration of my round / lvl spells at 30 CL is equal to 6 minutes per cast. To be fully buffed, I'm going to add two more short duration buffs: Stone Body and Regeneration. Then, I'm going to make sure I cast an extended Divine Favour right at the end as it lasts only 2 minutes. So, I'll waste 7 rounds buffing ( Prayer, Recitation, Battletide, Stone Body, Regeneration, Divine Power, Divine Favour) and that will make my first buff last... 5 minutes and 18 seconds out of the original 6 minutes. Pretty far from being "half-way through", I think. For your claim to happen, you'd have to be at around CL 15 and cast the non-extended version of these spells.


No, you won't. Unless that's the boss fight, and somehow you jaunted/skipped lots of content to get there. If you're actually "playing" the character, doing such a thing will leave you drained far earlier than it is convenient. My "claim" had a dose of sarcasm, but the truth of it is, you can't play like that for half an hour. Not even close. The point of the "barbarian with AB 51" is...he sort of keeps it.

I have agreed with you in my first point that doing a full buff is inefficient against 99.9% of the content while the point number two was made to adress your statement, now I know sarcastic, that have introduced some inaccuracy regarding the spell durations into the discussion.

Your claim Druid cannot solo the Balor is a tad on the wrong side, especially now. Fun fact is, it's much easier to kill the Dracolich on a Druid than on all the other classes you listed, especially now that you need to be YET ANOTHER follower of Istisha to get Evasion. Goes both ways, frand .

I was wrong on that, apparently it became soloable for a druid recently because of a bug that makes his flame weapon ignore the fire immunity. Now it takes like 15 to 20 minutes of chewing him together with a dragon companion on Nature's Avatar. He wasn't soloable few months ago (the damage was a stream of 0's and an occasional other digit on a crit).

Dwarven Defender doesn't take as long as you think to kill stuff, especially since it has EW and doesn't buff. With your Bard/Cle/FSs, you have to buff "for ages" to even approach the Balor, and if you picked up EW it means he's going to Mord you naked right now.

Bards / Clerics / FSes buff for some time but they're overcompensated by being able to run with 150% speed at least until the next available rest. Also, with the recent changes the balor isn't going to mord you/me naked. His 3 mords didn't take off a single buff from my 30 CL caster so his mord CL must be 20 or lower now.

In conclusion, the reason why I don't give importance to "how you kill stuff" is, this is supposed to be an RPG. Players should pick the characters based on what they like to RP, and then make the mechanics work, somehow. In the hierarchy you don't agree with, it's quite clearly shown that you can do this just fine as is.

If then you're interested in speedclears, dmg benchmarks, structured PvP and whatnot, there are better games out there. I mean...FAR better. Without "RP out", with MMR, leagues, better UI, better graphics and so on. If one bothers with NWN2, it's usually because of the RP.

While the RP, the setting and the community are the main reasons people are still playing this game, the mechanics (IMO) are an essential ingredient too. And when you look at the Custom Changes page you can see a number of changes regarding just the mechanics. Buffs, nerfs, developed stuff, disabled stuff - all that effort to engineer a more enjoyable experience of the gameplay than the vanilla nwn2 can offer. Lots of time has passed since then and I believe a revision of few classes could have a positive impact on the server.

If balance is no concern of yours and (let's assume) it doesn't negatively impact your RP, then why are you critical of any changes? In another thread someone advocates for the mystic theurge that he would like to play and RP, yet you're strongly opposed to the introduction of that class because it might be too powerful. Here, players raised valid concerns regading two classes with excessive power - you're opposed to any changes to them as well. Why is the "old OP" good if the "new OP" would be bad?

[Invoker]

I had no idea the Balor's CL was reduced. How interesting a turn...

The rest, you already stated.

Allow me to correct a few misunderstandings, though:

If balance is no concern of yours and (let's assume) it doesn't negatively impact your RP, then why are you critical of any changes?

I'm critical of unnecessary nerfs and power creep, as well as knee-jerk reactions. I wouldn't say every change can be classified as such, nor that I am opposed to every change.

In another thread someone advocates for the mystic theurge that he would like to play and RP, yet you're strongly opposed to the introduction of that class because it might be too powerful.

What?! I even proposed an implementation of it. Of course, allowing MT to be a Wiz30/Cle30 is too powerful, but that doesn't mean MT can't be implemented, nor that it will not perform. My suggestion would make for a fairly interesting class, actually, without adding to the power creep.

Here, players raised valid concerns regading two classes with excessive power - you're opposed to any changes to them as well. Why is the "old OP" good if the "new OP" would be bad?

It's because of your concept of "OP" differing from mine, and in the specific what power really is, and where it lies: speedclearing isn't a balancing factor, whereas the ability to achieve the result is, simply because if you use the former, you'll kill build diversity, and ultimately this old little game. I explained in my former post, the "In conclusion," part. I feel that there's not much more I can say on the matter without becoming redundant.

[Flasmix]

I want to chime in on some of the suggested cleric nerfs being suggested.

My cleric is the farthest thing from a power build out there. In the end he will be 27 cleric and 3 war priest, with practiced spell caster to even out the progression loss from war priest. He is designed to be able to buff and heal his companions (which most clerics should be) as opposed to being able to solo everything by himself. He has an edge in PvE due to very high DC's from maxed witheg, which I took for epic animal companion. His AC isn't spectacular, his attack bonus when buffed isn't special and his damage is laughable. Against standard mobs he is a beast, through and through.

He cannot and will not be able to solo any of the bosses and without the aid of divine power he struggles against the Duergar stonefist monk, a mid-boss for lack of a better term. Even with divine power it's tough as he needs to get off a heal spell or two to survive. Any nerfs done would severely hurt his potential to survive as the majority of bosses and mid bosses were designed around the plague that is favoured souls. An attempt to nerf PowerBuilds would hinder my legitimate RP build which isn't that spectacular to begin with.

Favoured souls are over powered. There's no question about it. Recently I saw a favoured soul at the FAI, a storm lord, take on a level 30 melee build and decimate them. The warrior didn't stand a chance. This particular Talosian deliberately acts confrontational and hostile to goad people into fighting their power build.

Here's the real question though, how do you counter one? I've never seen a mage, warrior, rogue or cleric be able to handle a favoured soul. The class is that good. Maybe a dragon druid can, maybe a power build bard can. As it stands currently, there's not too many ways of handling them PvP or PvE wise. I fully agree that the boss monsters in place cater to hindering FSs, but they are still able to solo most of them if not all of them. How can we balance them out without hindering the RP characters?

[NegInfinity]

This particular Talosian deliberately acts confrontational and hostile to goad people into fighting their power build.

Here's the real question though, how do you counter one?

You get them permastriked via RP. In theory, anyway.

[Thorsson]

Favoured souls are over powered. There's no question about it. Recently I saw a favoured soul at the FAI, a storm lord...

Hang on that's not an FS, it's an FS/SL. Is an FS30 OP? Maybe the answer, like the Druid/Monk, is to ban certain combinations. Personally I'd be all for banning Stormlord completely; it's way more powerful than the already banned Dragon Disciple. I wouldn't object to nerfing EDM in some way either, because it's a shameless grab for power.

As to your other issue, that SL isn't the only one shamelessly provoking confrontation; metagaming +++'s regularly "get tough" with those of a lower level, even ones that should know better...