Balancing Bards and FS?

[chad878262]

What if EDM only worked if you maintained 2/3 (1/3 for Blackguard) levels in the class that granted you turn undead? So at level 30 you must have 10 Blackguard, 20 Paladin or 20 Cleric levels, similar to how Intuitive Attack is set up. In addition, as with Intuitive attack, throughout your build you must maintain 1/3 or 2/3 leveling or DM/EDM doesn't work... This is the only way I can see leaving EDM in it's current format while making it more 'balanced'. Who knows, this might even lead to more / closer to 'pure' paladins and clerics...There would probably also be more Blackguards that went the full 10 levels...

Could also switch up Water Cleric Domain to not grant Evasion, though that would also impact Dwarven Defenders and other's, not just FS that dip cleric for evasion and EDM...

[NegInfinity]

Favoured souls are over powered. There's no question about it. Recently I saw a favoured soul at the FAI, a storm lord...

Hang on that's not an FS, it's an FS/SL. Is an FS30 OP?

Speaking of which, issn't that how CE stormlord is supposed to act anyway? They aren't "campfire carebear" types.

What if EDM only worked if you maintained 2/3 (1/3 for Blackguard) levels in the class that granted you turn undead?

Very bad idea that would ruin many concepts including one of the characters I played (which was a literal glass cannon).

It would be better to make FS application only instead.

P.S. Could you guys, you know, stop trying to ruin somebody's fun via mechanical means for no reason whatsoever? Any sort of voting on those kind of matters should be done in-game anyway, so anybody who plays would have a voice, and not just people that hang out on suggestion forums only. It is a RP server. So roleplaying should be the first priority. If FS is "overpowered" (on rp server?), go ahead and make it application only. Let's have people pester dm team even more.

[Thorsson]

I'll be honest and say that I find Dwarven Defenders with 3 levels of Cleric in a non-Dwarven God very cheesy indeed.

[Thorsson]

Speaking of which, issn't that how CE stormlord is supposed to act anyway? They aren't "campfire carebear" types.

Yes, a perfect storm whereby an (hero) can actually RP an (hero).

[Flasmix]

Hang on that's not an FS, it's an FS/SL. Is an FS30 OP? Maybe the answer, like the Druid/Monk, is to ban certain combinations. Personally I'd be all for banning Stormlord completely; it's way more powerful than the already banned Dragon Disciple. I wouldn't object to nerfing EDM in some way either, because it's a shameless grab for power.

As to your other issue, that SL isn't the only one shamelessly provoking confrontation; metagaming +++'s regularly "get tough" with those of a lower level, even ones that should know better...

A 30 FS isn't op, you're right it's the dips into other classes.

Making a pretty much invincible power build to deliberately be confrontational, while saying it's how it should be RP'd is a pretty poor reason to allow it. How is that a memorable villain?

[Calodan]

It would be better to make FS application only instead.

So what kind of application? What would the parameters be? Being a divine is not easy no. It does take some research into RP. The whole cleric style and whatnot so what is the idea if it were a application class?

[Thorsson]

I dislike application only, it tends to mean DM and DM buddies only.

[Invoker]

Favoured souls are over powered. There's no question about it. Recently I saw a favoured soul at the FAI, a storm lord, take on a level 30 melee build and decimate them. The warrior didn't stand a chance. This particular Talosian deliberately acts confrontational and hostile to goad people into fighting their power build.

ROFLLOL! That's funny .

Here's the real question though, how do you counter one? I've never seen a mage, warrior, rogue or cleric be able to handle a favoured soul. The class is that good. Maybe a dragon druid can, maybe a power build bard can. As it stands currently, there's not too many ways of handling them PvP or PvE wise. I fully agree that the boss monsters in place cater to hindering FSs, but they are still able to solo most of them if not all of them. How can we balance them out without hindering the RP characters?

You haven't seen many mages, then. Proper wizards and sorcerers have a big advantage vs a FS. Of course, the average "overpowered" (HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! People abuse this word in such a fashion...hilarious) HiPS mage has zero chances to scratch one, but more serious, high CL arcanists beat them fairly easily.

A Dragon Druid can "draw" it as long as the FS does not have EW (even at the price of CL, since Druids don't dispel), but it's not a favorable fight. Bard is on the same level, really, and becomes only a matter of consumables.

As it stands currently, there are as many ways to handle FSs as there are to handle the other classes I pointed out in my former posts, when describing the relative power levels.

FSs can solo the bosses that Bards, Druids, EDM Clerics, Warlocks, Monks, Dwarven Defenders, Gishes, Blood Magi and many more can handle. In an easier fashion in some cases, harder in others, but the end result is the same.

I dislike application only, it tends to mean DM and DM buddies only.

In the past, the staff rejected ideas like making powerful classes application only. Examples:

-) Archmage was watered down, but opened to everyone, as opposed to 5 lvl PrC app only (which was the initial idea)
-) Blood Magus was kept open, and its power is definitely out of balance.
-) Shadow Adept involved a pretty big trade-off, and is tied to a specific RP. Application only was in order (as in: you can build more powerfully without it)
-) Red Wizard definitely isn't the route an arcanist would take for mechanical power. App only.

[thids]

8 pages, and half of it is spent on thinking up ways to nerf Blackguards, Paladins, EDM and various other classes and class combinations. Either nerf the core of the perceived issue here (FS) or nerf nothing.


As for the talk about balance, I'm perfectly fine with leaving things as they are, but please, let's not enforce this illusion that some sort of balance exists. Outright ignoring the power of the so called "Tier 1" when introducing or considering new content has nothing to do with balance. When someone suggests something that would belong in that "Tier 1", it is either furiously denied or butchered to pieces until it's shoved all the way down to "Tier 3".

[Invoker]

perceived issue

Yep.

When someone suggests something that would belong in that "Tier 1", it is either furiously denied or butchered to pieces until it's shoved all the way down to "Tier 3".

Once upon a time, there was a class called Blood Magus.

The class was OP. It was definitely "Tier 1". It was introduced.

Result: everyone added BM to the "OP" cries.

You can never win, man. Damned if you do, damned if you don't .

[Steve]

Result: everyone added BM to their builds. Resulting RP? Was it worth it?

Fixed it for you!

[Invoker]

Result: everyone added BM to their builds. Resulting RP? Was it worth it?

Fixed it for you!

No, you haven't fixed it.

I barely ever played BM, but its RP has a lot of flavor.

If people decide NOT to RP it, that's another problem. But then again, you can say the same of Pale Master, Frost Mage, Red Wizard, Frenzied Berserker, Monk, Favored Soul, Cleric, Druid, Warlock...

Unless you suggest to remove...well, everything, that isn't "fixed for me", no.

[Steve]

... its RP has a lot of flavor...people decide NOT to RP it...

Yes, I DID fix it, before and now. Something called a joke, I know you've heard of it before.

And I DO say the same for all the other classes you mentioned—building for power is always looked at first, over how-do-I-RP-this-Class/PrC, in my opinion, how I've seen it "playerd" out on BGTSCC. Though some will say and do choose non "Tier 1" classes/prcs for the RP, that isn't the majority. It's also why BGTSCC is so popular, because of this medium RP Server classification. What's the current High RP Server population/popularity? I don't think there is even one single Server in action.

What I am suggesting is that mechanics, as they related to builds (or classes/PrCs), are or should be considered really secondary to the Role-play behind taking a class. Making a STR Bard so you can pawnz-stomp everything in your path...is that rally playing a Bard? And does the "Tier 1" mechanics of that STR Bard actually make the RP of that Bard better, or worse?

Because from what I can tell, better or worse mechanics—the POWER of the build—is totally different and/or removed from the Role-play of that Character.

Meaning: is the real problem in that "Tier 1" builds negatively affect Role-play in general and thus need a nerf or "balancing," or is it simply that when RP is upheld by mechanics, as in "I can only RP a powerful arse kicking mage if they are actually undeniably, mechanically as powerful as I can get them so I'd better throw a few levels of BM into the build," that we forget the real power in the Character comes from how it is played by the Player, not whether they can solo the Balor, or that they can PvP the entire server with 2 spells.

[Invoker]

Meaning: is the real problem in that "Tier 1" builds negatively affect Role-play in general and thus need a nerf or "balancing," or is it simply that when RP is upheld by mechanics, as in "I can only RP a powerful arse kicking mage if they are actually undeniably, mechanically as powerful as I can get them so I'd better throw a few levels of BM into the build," that we forget the real power in the Character comes from how it is played by the Player, not whether they can solo the Balor, or that they can PvP the entire server with 2 spells.

Ohh, I understand what you mean. No, I do not believe one needs to create a better mechanical build to RP being powerful. That would be like asking a player to learn spell formulae by memory to RP a Wizard.

But what you're hinting at is a player's shortcoming, more than the class/character's itself.

[Dawrf]

Bosses.

Why do people want to kill them?

One explanation could be the challenge provided. The other is the potential to gain loot.

If we focus on the second one, very few classes can actually survive and flourish without any equipment. Then there is the excitement of opening a chest for whatever wonders it might hold inside, from that empty spirits bottle to the randomly generated Epic item 'Karond' would offer 50,000,000 gp and whatever else was needed to get the trade done. Not to mention that 'bosses' themselves tend to have much higher probabilities to drop something as they fall to the ground.

So how does the loot system work? For most 'containers' - each player can nowadays loot them once per server reset as determined by their character's HD.

Before, it used to be twice per server reset and the 'containers' would re-spawn after twenty or so minutes. There even was a time when the 'containers' had no HD limitations on them.

Therefore, perhaps we should consider why we have these HD-based limitations in the first place? Well, a handful of players in their quest for loot and treasure kept running through the server looting all the chests they could get their hands on. Often with epic characters.

Naturally, as available play time is limited, a considerable number of players thought it a very unfair practice towards them. An epic could just steam roll them if they protested, nor could they do anything to hinder the high level characters from grabbing the chests. Hence the HD limitations were implemented to allow all characters a theoretical possibility to loot some chests.

With the above said, it brings us back to the bosses. The need and desire for loot will not disappear, in fact, it can be said to be a core part of the Dungeon and Dragons experience. But on our server, as your character's HD rises, the possible locations to loot decrease. They decrease regardless of whether your character is a 'Tier 1' build or from the bottom of the list. But what 'tier' your character is does determine what areas you can still have access to. It contributes to the sense of unfairness and power imbalance that will never be solved - because you cannot force all people to play as a Strength Bard.

Therefore, how about we remove the HD limitations from the 'containers' altogether? Or alternatively create a character based cap that determines how many 'containers' you can loot per server reset. Either way, every build would then have similar enough access to the randomly generated loot.

In my opinion, it would reduce the need to be able to defeat the bosses. A currently unhappy 'RP' build could stick to looting the 'CR1 bandit cave' and perhaps use it is an opportunity to make new connections in the process. It is something that already takes place in the server, but the current HD limitations make sure that the 'RP' build is not a member of the adventuring group to some extent. It might be harsh, but our 'RP' build is not much different from a walking, talking buff-bot, doing it for some altruistic reason. Thus the ability to loot chests with the rest would make the situation slightly more sensible. A fellow adventurer, interested in the gold and glory.


Just saying that as a someone with a history of making intentionally horrible builds along with the obscene power builds, because the HD limitations have been far more noticeable with some characters than others.

Anyhow, just my two cents.