Dispel fix and Assassin buffs; how to plan a build?

[Charraj]

With the dispel fix in, one would think that Assassin buffs (Cat's Grace and Fox's Cunning, specifically) are no longer viable in several areas. Assassins have a CL of 10, which is pretty much a guaranteed dispel in higher-level areas (I am assuming).

With that in mind, should an Assassin build for the +4 boost from those buffs? Or is it better to build for +3 from an item, which cannot be dispelled?

[Steve]

If you plan on the +4 from assassin spell buffs, you could also use +2 items on your toon—easy enough to get and for super cheap—and then your toon would only be losing -1 point in situations where dispelled.

I don't think, personally, that losing 1 point is really making a difference, at the end the day.

And with the feeling I get that mobs with dispel are either being reduced or removed, so that some Area-balance is put into place for adventuring, it can work out okay for assassins in the future.

But also: I usually build my assassins to not rely on buffs, because even before the Dispel Fix, they were rather short lived.

[Bad Omens]

Well, despite my natural inclination, have to agree with Steve on this one.

Adding to that, assassins have enough spells per day to replace 1, or 2 dispels.
That coupled with HiPs, which can get you out of a few Dispels and also trouble if you are Dispelled, means it shouldn't make much difference.

[Dawrf]

With that in mind, should an Assassin build for the +4 boost from those buffs? Or is it better to build for +3 from an item, which cannot be dispelled?

If you have build your character to benefit from the +4 spells, you could settle down for +2 from items. Or you might try to supplement your easily dispelled Assassin spell book via just as easily dispelled potions.

Personally though, I would build to benefit from those +3 bonuses from items.

For example to reach '34' Dexterity I would start out with:
19 (Base) + 7 (Ability Increases) + 5 (Epic Feats) + 3 (Item) = 34

Now, were I to settle down for +2 items, I would have to go for:
20 (Base) + 7 (Ability Increases) + 5 (Epic Feats) + 2 (Item) = 34

With the '+3 items' I could save '3' points at character creation, points that I could then use to raise some other stat higher and possibly get more skill points, or hitpoints, per level.

[chad878262]

Um... 5 epic feats on ability increases? What about epic prowess/expose weakness/perfect two weapon fighting?

There is some discussion in qc about assassin/black guard...That said I would say you should assume dispel is going to happen. Planning for +2 with spell buffs gives the extras benefit of maybe using an item that gives +2 to two stats, but +3 gives full benefit all the time. Both builds have merit, I'd say it comes down to personal preference.

[Dawrf]

Um... 5 epic feats on ability increases? What about epic prowess/expose weakness/perfect two weapon fighting?

It was just a random example pulled from my head, however...

A 'Fighter 4/Rogue 16/Assassin 10' build could spend 5 epic feats on ability increases, get Expose Weakness, Epic Precision, but be a feat short of Perfect Two-weapon Fighting.

Thus, from the top of my head, a 'Fighter 8/Rogue 19/Shadowdancer 3' should be able to get all five Great Dexterity feats, and Expose Weakness, Epic Precision, and Perfect Two-Weapon fighting.

The trick lies in the right order of levels. (At least one level of fighter is taken during the epic levels to grab Epic Prowess, and then we use the Rogue feats gained at level 13, 16, and 19 to get everything else.)

[chad878262]

I suppose, but then you're giving up epic dodge...doesn't seen a fair trade IMO

[Dawrf]

I suppose, but then you're giving up epic dodge...doesn't seen a fair trade IMO

Actually that depends on what you want to do.

For example, as long as enemy caster are using their Touch Attacks with weapons equipped, then Epic Dodge is well worth it.

But if you posses a high enough AC by default, then the benefit offered by Epic Doge becomes less when we considering its actual cost.

But yeah, opinions and preferences differ.

[Blackman D]

idk i suppose, i like dodging those natural 20s myself tho

[Thorsson]

I see it like this. Epic Dodge causes the first attack to miss (I know that's not actually how it works, but let's assume you would have been hit), that means the second attack, which is generally at -5AB, is now the first attack that can hit. So that means ED is worth around 5AC. The actual way it works makes it both a little better (if the first attack misses it now kicks in with the second, etc.) and a little worse (you don't get that -5AB benefit against a flurrying Monk, say). So, all things taken into account 5AC is a good equivalent. No way is any other Feat, or even several, going to produce that benefit, particularly on a TWF and particularly on BGTSCC, where AC is vital.

[cosmic ray]

with the dispel fix epic assassin and blackguard levels should be added to make up for it

[joleda]

with the dispel fix epic assassin and blackguard levels should be added to make up for it

Epic levels for a prestige class? How does that work? Make them base classes?

[Blackman D]

epic PrCs can advance pass 10, they generally dont get new abilities or anything like that (minus ones like PM who do end up getting more summon options) but it just repeats previous bonuses

like assassin would continue to get SA dice, DC to DA from levels, but the spellbook might already be capped out

BG might get more SA dice, maybe new summon options and smites, but the bulk of what any PrC is gonna get is already gained in the first 10 levels

nwn1 did epic PrCs but again most do not actually gain anything that makes it worth it, but epic PrCs were already brought up for some other reason and were shot down anyway

you could make a 10 rogue 20 assassin with a 30 INT and have a 40 DC death attack

[Charraj]

I . . . am pretty sure you can't take more than 10 levels of Assassin.

I . . . think?

[Tsidkenu]

You could in NWN1 with the 40 level cap. Some of the best powerbuilds were things like Fighter 10/Weapon Master 28/Rogue 2 or Fighter 9/Bard 2/ Arcane Archer 29, not to mention the tankiness of a fighter 8/rogue 2/ dwarven defender 30 with 30/- Damage reduction!