Feedback: Lore split

[NegInfinity]

I'm not sure if splitting the lore skill was a good idea.

Since the new system was introduced I have not seen anyone roll any lore skill. Well, there was ONE guy who rolled lore: Arcana.

I think it would help if there was some sort of sample table somewhere (for each lore skill) giving sample dcs for different tasks/knowledge checks.

It would also definitely help if the new skills would be used mechanically somewhere (in dialogs, quests, etc).

Synergy between skills would help a lot too.

What is personally confusing for me is lack of synergy of Arcana skill with anything.
So you get this kind of situation:

Oh, I know this object! It is a magic item called "Wrath of Malar" with this and that effect. Who's Malar? No, I don't have a slightest idea. But you know, there's that weird building across the street with that strange "rising sun" emblem, and people seem to visit that building a lot. Not sure why, though. But I'm quite sure their doorway isn't enchanted! I checked. *nods sagely*. Anyway, you could ask those guys there about Malar. I'm sure they would know.

Oh, and that scroll you have over here is Mordekainen's disjunction spell. What kind of spell? (rolls 70 spellcraft) Well, you do this and this gesture when you cast and and it has this effect. No idea who Mordekainen is, though. (rolls 1 on religion) Say, you wouldn't know who the heck is that Mystra girl? I've been hearing the name a lot lately.


I mean, come on... Surely a character with 33 base Spellcraft and Lore: Arcana would pick at least SOME additional knowledge and learn few big names along the way?

[metaquad4]

Not sure how synergy between skills is coded/if its even possible to code, but I would agree with this logic.

Aaaand situations like that make me glad skills rolls are mostly for DMs here.

Anyway, I think the synergies were like so in PnP (List inside spoiler).

Hidden: show

If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (arcana), you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Survival, you get a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering), you get a +2 bonus on Search checks made to find secret doors or hidden compartments.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (geography), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made to keep from getting lost or to avoid natural hazards.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nature), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made in above ground natural environments (aquatic, desert, forest, hill, marsh, mountains, or plains).
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nobility and royalty), you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (the planes), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while on other planes.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while underground.

Maybe (unless a script could be made to determine "special circumstances" - like "If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nature), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made in above ground natural environments") those synergies with special circumstances could be given a +1 bonus, and the others that apply all the time could be given +2 or somesuch.

This is, of course, if this stuff is even possible to make. Which, I hope it is!

[DM Golem]

I mean, come on... Surely a character with 33 base Spellcraft and Lore: Arcana would pick at least SOME additional knowledge and learn few big names along the way?

That knowledge is represented by...skill points in said areas, in the main part.

One of the things to realise is that we are also trying to control the DCs so that even lower level PCs who RP a specialism can have a role in RP investigations, which breaking down the skills does. If we weaken the effect of "I put 33 skill points into Arcana and now don't know anything about local customs" we will weaken the impetus to spread lore points about.

The answer, really, to your situation, is to realise that even 15 lore in one area is highly knowledgeable, and that 33 is overkill for almost everything that will come up

[Blackman D]

synergies were already brought up and should be getting taken care of, it can be a lot of shift through though

and classes that have missing or incorrect skills were done first

[NegInfinity]

that 33 is overkill for almost everything that will come up

But said char REALLY liked magical items! XD

Alright, I'm kidding.

It would be nice to have some table with official DCs somewhere, though. I only (vaguely) remember Hellfire Warlock DCs from the books I read, so it is somewhat hard to determine how many points a character would need in this or that area to represent knowledge well.

[DM Golem]

Each DM is going to take a slightly different tack but in PNP the DC is 10 for easy questions, 15 for basic questions, and 20 - 30 for tough ones.

Personally I would use those as a guide in my events, but then possibly add a "server level cap 30" penality of 5-10 depending on the party I'm faced with.

Even with that, 20 skill points + native intelligence is going to answer most of what you need, although beating DCs by more would give more info perhaps

Bear in mind Lore: Arcana is: ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts. It identifying magic items is an NWN2ism.

I would probably myself give a circumstance bonus (or penalty) if someone rped being particularly learned in one area (Eg, "dragons") over others.

[TheLier]

With my RWoT, I always RP-d my arcana is being very proficent in his area, he knows the other areas too, but not nearly as much. Even though his 30+ lore arcana would imply that.

[Rhifox]

I'm not sure if splitting the lore skill was a good idea.

Since the new system was introduced I have not seen anyone roll any lore skill. Well, there was ONE guy who rolled lore: Arcana.

No one has rolled them because they currently can't be rolled. DMFI still needs to be updated to include all the new skills.

I for one love having the new lore skills, and would like them to stay.

[Blackman D]

No one has rolled them because they currently can't be rolled. DMFI still needs to be updated to include all the new skills.

also being worked on, for the record

[Syracuse]

I'm honestly super super super torn.

For one, the knowledge skills are like. This major meta thing that can totally alter a character.

Your fighter started life, perhaps, as a brick layer - or a cobble stone laying roadsman? Awesome - we now have a skill for you to -display- that knowledge of structures, and so forth! This is awesome, and neat, and has a opportunity to expand roleplay - to give mechanical backing to characters. And whenever the mechanics enhance roleplay, this is always a great and happy thing.

On the other hand, it also reveals -quite- a number of problems. Survive ability versus roleplaying that seemingly 'superfluous' thing as being a brick layer - when you have to make decisions absed upon 'I only have x amount of skill points, and I need them for tumble/spellcraft/stealth skills/theabilitytomakecakesshapedlikemoths'.

This is -bad-. This is also very D&D, don't get me wrong, and I understand that. But it's very, very hard to toss something like this in without expanding on the problems inherit in 3.0's skill system - and only made that much more God awful by things like enhanced saving throws and AC thanks to expanding on particular skills.

This turns certian skills into 'key skills'. Areas where you can either make up for your character's lack in 'X' (let's say, for example, will saving throws being very low, and using a splash class to take Spell craft, so you can up that really bad Will saving throw.) Or just flat out min/max with them. I'm not tsk'ing either side of this coin, by the by, it's just a note.

Also, the fact that things like 'what you've studied' are determined only by your class, and nothing to do with your character before they studied 'x'. Which seems silly to me, as base D&D basically says 'You were nothing but a walking talking moron until the moment you decided to become a wizard, so eat it.' And making any of them closed to other classes? Seems silly. Books are available across the Coast. There are monk orders in devout worships, there are fighter armies of Lathander's church, etcetera etcetera - it just doesn't make any sense to me to say 'Yeah, those years in grade school were worthless - the only thing you learned was in college. Hope it was a STEM field.'

Personally? And I know that while I type this - what I'm asking is probably -really- hard to either code, or downright impossible, but seems worthy of piping up over I guess.

I think it'd be great if we could do one of two things.

One would be to increase every class's skill points per level. Like Pathfinder. A groaning suggestion, I know, bringing up Pathfinder. But it did try to address some things that were inherently -annoying- as hell in 3.0 by popular demand. But, granted what I'vve already admitted - that there is a category of just flat out key skills, this means empowering every single class in doing so in a means I can't quite calculate. Infact, I don't think anyone can until it was done and we all had to deal with it.

A lesser idea - and one that I can admit is probably hard to code. I think it'd be really great if all classes had just 1 lil skill point per level that could only, somehow, be placed into knowledge skills.

There's a few reasons I can think of why -not- to do that as well. Mostly, that 'when everyone's special, no one's special' sort of sense of handing things out. But a knowledge skill is like giving people a hobby. It's giving them something unique that they can actually functionally use in the world.

My 2 cent ramble. I will say I enjoy having them overall, and once again, thank you so much to our programming team whom have put up with a lot in both code and players to make it happen - and still work to fix up things.

[metaquad4]

Honestly, as the number of skills are increased, increasing the skill points available is a fairly good idea. This is something Myths of Atlan recognized, when they put in all the PnP skills that they did they also increased the amount of skillpoints (by 2, I believe) for everyone.

I disagree with the counter-argument that people will have enough skill points for "moar" mechanical skills. True, we did add a new one, but most power builds already have/had enough have enough skillpoints for those bread and butter ones (Spellcraft (sometimes), Heal (sometimes), UMD, Tumble, Concentration (for spellcasters) and now escape artist).

On top of them, with the "RP your character sheet rule", anyone who does minmax in the kind of horrendous manner that only a truly devoted powerbuilder can manage (who lost some int, and now this change would benefit) is gimped out a lot when it comes to RP (which IS a downside, like it or not). Not to mention that kind of minmaxing does leave scars in some mechanical areas too. To be honest though, I can't really think of many stat-wretched builds that hold up well. Only a couple, and those could be surpassed by others anyway.

All we "risk" doing, for the most part, is giving characters a chance to swab up more of the neat skills we have added (and ones for the future that we are adding) and adding to their RP. I don't really see an issue with that.

True, people who want to take advantage of this would need to RCR. But, as we have the 100% RCR event going on, its not really a logistical nightmare. It might be a logistical headache for the players who want to mule and have no friends, but hey! Make friends! Plenty of friendly faces in the Nexus.

[Rhifox]

One would be to increase every class's skill points per level. Like Pathfinder. A groaning suggestion, I know, bringing up Pathfinder. But it did try to address some things that were inherently -annoying- as hell in 3.0 by popular demand. But, granted what I'vve already admitted - that there is a category of just flat out key skills, this means empowering every single class in doing so in a means I can't quite calculate. Infact, I don't think anyone can until it was done and we all had to deal with it.

The only thing this would do is make people put even more points into said "key skills". People who want to powerbuild, are going to powerbuild. More skill points would be like giving them more attribute points. They're still going to make Cha (or whatever) a dump stat.

It is people's choice how much they care about their character's knowledge (or other non-combat skills) versus their character's "key" skills. If you want your character to be knowledgeable, then the "key skills" should have less points in them.

It should also be noted that knowledge skills do not represent the sum total of your character's knowledge. A single skill rank is supposed to be a significant thing. General, common knowledge in a field is leaving the skill at 0. 1 skill point means you've had some basic education beyond the norm. 10 points makes you a local leader in that area. You don't need a lot of skill points to represent your character's knowledge.

[Blackman D]

honestly ive ignored most of the new skills and put less into knowledge (since it doesnt need to be high and its like the only one...) and kept to what i originally had on a lot of my toons

more points would be nice but wouldnt really change me using any of the new stuff and would be rather annoying for a high INT build since you cant level and have a pool over 5 pts, not all high INT builds have a lot of available skill options and have to "waste" points on cross class things they may not want or need just so they can level

and then for builds that have a lot of choices available but not enough points to put into the stuff they need, giving more would only help them when they arent the ones who would really need it

[metaquad4]

The only thing this would do is make people put even more points into said "key skills". People who want to powerbuild, are going to powerbuild. More skill points would be like giving them more attribute points. They're still going to make Cha (or whatever) a dump stat.

This comparison would hold up, if we added 2 or 3 more stats to the mix. The reason that more skill points was suggested, is because more skills are coming into play. And, most power builds that aren't a pain to play will have enough skill points for all the key skills already. There aren't enough key skills to put these extra skill points into key skills.

It is people's choice how much they care about their character's knowledge (or other non-combat skills) versus their character's "key" skills. If you want your character to be knowledgeable, then the "key skills" should have less points in them.

This is true. There should be some level of sacrifice. There is right now, there was before all these new skills were added, and there will be even if we are given 1 or 2 more points to play with.

It should also be noted that knowledge skills do not represent the sum total of your character's knowledge. A single skill rank is supposed to be a significant thing. General, common knowledge in a field is leaving the skill at 0. 1 skill point means you've had some basic education beyond the norm. 10 points makes you a local leader in that area. You don't need a lot of skill points to represent your character's knowledge.

This is also true, and most certainly something I appreciate. I am a little cautious that it won't fall into the pit of skill inflation (I.E. if 10 points means you are a local leader and everyone has 10 points....everyone is a local leader?). But, the relatively low DCs do mean spreading skill points around without damaging RP is possible, not to mention it allows different level groups to interact with one another in a more organic method.

Imo, synergies would make adding new skill points unnecessary (For every 5 survival, 1 knowledge (nature) for example), at least until we start adding in more and more skills. And that would be even more preferable to adding more skill points. A-bit more tricky to make though, and I imagine the developers have more than enough on their plate, fixing bugs from the most recent updates.

[Blackman D]

synergies are getting worked on for appropriate skills but it should only be standard synergy, 5 ranks to 2 pt synergy