To the QC team

[The Whistler]

Since I remember reading (correct me if I'm wrong) that buffs to swashies, barbs and to a lesser extent rogues were inbound once the dust of the big update settles, I figured I'd ask the QC team if they would like for the community to chip in with suggestions and feedback perhaps.

If they don't, well. Hopefully this thread can act as a whislist for the community . Being the OP, I think I'll go first.

Barbarians:
- add modified CON bonus as magical/physical damage while raging.
- make Tireless a background feat to allow for more building diversity. Right now, it's barb 17+ or nothing.
- make tumble a class skill.

What would you guys like to see ?

[Young Werther]

Give swashbucklers intimidate as a class skill plzzzz

EDIT: They also should get demoralize I think. I thought they did a la Kaedrins but that is not the case.

[Rhifox]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid- ... ashbuckler

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue

[Young Werther]

Could you pick out the salient points of those p&p classes and propose them for me?

Sorry. I've just never played p&p and the whole argument that NWN should be like p&p is repulsive to me.

ttp://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid- ... ashbuckler

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue

[Thorsson]

Barbarians I feel should have Tumble as a class skill. It seems quite logical. The downside is that we would probably see a lot of Barb dips, but then maybe that's OK here.

Tireless as a feat wouldn't only affect Barbs. I'd prefer it that Tireless Rage kicked in earlier than level 17.

Personally I think Barbarians get plenty while raging already, especially if they invest. Maybe a new feat/series of feats to add something would be OK.

Swashbuckler - nothing against them having Intimidate as a class skill, although I struggle with the logic. I struggle even further with demoralize. I know a lot of people play them as Pirates, but they're not Pirates.

The main issue with Swash is the fact that you wait a long time after level 5/7 (depending on whether you need Mobility) to get something at level 14, and even that's not much use except vs bosses. It loses out a lot compared to filling those levels with Fighter. This was no doubt the thought behind Kaedrin's Battle Dancer. I would make this a Swashie only Feat and require 10 levels, which gets rid of the two problems with the Kaedrin version. Possibly the other thing that would make them better is being able to take Epic Precision without need 10 Rogue levels. Possibly a Feat that could be taken by Epic Swashies, possibly with some restrictions (1 thought would be to require, say 21 Dex, so they couldn't be min-maxed around Int)?

Rogues main problem is fixed Uncanny Dodge and the prevalence of Spotters. My own feel is that spotters need seriously toning down rather than any other fix. I would add an Epic Feat that let Rogues negate Uncanny Dodge in some way. Given that Feats are very tight for Epic Rogues this would not be overpowered. I see there being a very valid reason for this - compared to PnP Medium AB hurts you far more on NWN2 because of the way they did Epic BAB progression, therefore UD also hurts you more than PnP.

[NegInfinity]

Give swashbucklers intimidate as a class skill plzzzz

EDIT: They also should get demoralize I think. I thought they did a la Kaedrins but that is not the case.

Demoralize - in the way it is listed on nwn2db - can have insane dc without much effort. DC70 will save, for example.

I'm not sure I would want it.

And yeah, I don't exactly understand why they should get intimidate as a class skill. The class should be about fighting in a flashy/smarty style, not about bullying people into obedience.

[Calantyr]

Since I remember reading (correct me if I'm wrong) that buffs to swashies, barbs and to a lesser extent rogues were inbound once the dust of the big update settles, I figured I'd ask the QC team if they would like for the community to chip in with suggestions and feedback perhaps.

If they don't, well. Hopefully this thread can act as a whislist for the community . Being the OP, I think I'll go first.

Barbarians:
- add modified CON bonus as magical/physical damage while raging.
- make Tireless a background feat to allow for more building diversity. Right now, it's barb 17+ or nothing.
- make tumble a class skill.

What would you guys like to see ?

I was going to suggest Barbs get tumble myself, it seems to logically fit their theme and it's not as though its an overpowered class (unless you totally munchkin it, but you can say that about most classes).

Taking more inspiration from Pathfinder may be a good idea in general. But that might require a complete server overhaul.

[Young Werther]

Give swashbucklers intimidate as a class skill plzzzz

EDIT: They also should get demoralize I think. I thought they did a la Kaedrins but that is not the case.

Demoralize - in the way it is listed on nwn2db - can have insane dc without much effort. DC70 will save, for example.

I'm not sure I would want it.

And yeah, I don't exactly understand why they should get intimidate as a class skill. The class should be about fighting in a flashy/smarty style, not about bullying people into obedience.

"Hello My Name is Inigo Montoya"

[NegInfinity]

"Hello My Name is Inigo Montoya"

Will save DC for resisting presence of asmodeous is 36. That's DC level 13 swashbuckler can get with kaedrin's demoralize and intimidate as class skill.

That's the problem.

I don't think they should get intimidate either, that doesn't make much sense and they already have bluff.

[Young Werther]

Will save DC for resisting presence of asmodeous is 36. That's DC level 13 swashbuckler can get with kaedrin's demoralize and intimidate as class skill.

That's the problem.

You're absolutely right. The DC would have to be reigned in and perhaps the character should have to specialize a bit in intimidate for it to be fully effective. Mind you it is still a single target, mind effecting ability.

I don't think they should get intimidate either, that doesn't make much sense and they already have bluff.

I see this differently. I see it as the swashbuckler's ability to exert a moral force through her charisma and confidence to effect her opponent. This could be done through the chivalrous way as I exampled with Inigo Montoya or in a twisted way.

I would like it if more social skills had a mechanical advantage to go alongside with the RP ones. Bluff is best with a feinter for example. Initimidate could have more uses and maybe they should be looked at for barbarian and rogue.

[YourMoveHolyMan]

Make HiPS a rogue bonus feat (A la improved evasion, crippling strike), you can still require it to have a 19 dex req if you like, but this would give cause for more rogue builds to actually take rogue levels, as most now center around having the minimum 10 required for crippling strike then move on.

[Blackman D]

they already have one now, blend in shadows

[YourMoveHolyMan]

I thought that was a lesser day per use version?

[NegInfinity]

I see this differently. I see it as the swashbuckler's ability to exert a moral force through her charisma and confidence to effect her opponent.

*shrugs shouldres* That's my opinion, pretty much.

Swash are about int/dex, not about cha, and indimidation makes more sense on a street thug (rogue) than on a swash. You can also always multiclass with something that opens up indimidate for you. I also don't like deviations from PnP. If I wanted intimidating swashbuckler, I would multiclass.

Also, for example, wizards don't get any diplomatic skills. Can intimidating wizard exist? Absolutely.

So in situations like that I would multiclass, because it is pretty much an additional purely mechanical way to express your character better.

Also, keep in mind that "intimidate" is not necessarily "being scary at a glance". It is coercion/bullying skill that can also be applied to torture.

That's just my opinion on the subject..

----

After looking at Intimidate page on d20srd, it looks like Kaedrin messed up and applied 1d20 to the wrong side of equation. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm

Originally Demoralize is supposed to go like this: Intimidate skill is checked against DC = target level + 1d20 + target modifiers on saves vs fear + wisdom bonus (if any), and those who are immune to fear are also immune to intimidation. That's much better and is pretty much equivalent to taunt skill.