Setting Hostile...is it still needed?

[Jepop]

Respect goes both ways, and there is another player putting effort into RPing a bad guy who is basically just being (#2) on when people ignore it cause they don't want to RP that way. Got to respect that bad guy RP too, don't we.

Hells, Boddynock got eaten once by a cannabalistic Malarite dragon druid. I didn't want to be eaten, but they got me fair and square, so I went with it.

More of this would be wonderful.

[TheLier]

I actually have a habit of setting people hostile long long before the situation progresses to a fight (or literally the moment before I initiate hostilities if they already gave consent, to preserve surprise). But I find that doing it early also prevents people from prepping to much.

If, at the first sign that things might possibly head south, you set to hostile, and then they start buffing or acting differently, you KNOW they are a metagamer as they are reacting to a purely OOC action, and you can just leave and not waste your time. But if they just continue talking you still have the option of unhostiling them later if things simmer down, or then initiating a fight if things DO head south without having to worry about whether or not you hostiled someone.

Now, as to your question about whether we even need this rule... I tend to support anything that increases realism. So, I say no, we do not need this rule. It not only can become an issue with just remembering to hit a button (PVP can be stressful or exciting to some, and they might forget a small thing that translates into them breaking the server rules) but people act/RP differently knowing it exists. I can create a level one wizard with max CHA and DEX and min CON and INT, walk up to literally any PC, and tell him to eat my d!($ knowing he HAS to give me an "RP out" of some kind before he puts me in my place.

My solution to this dilemma has long been the same, though before you try it I should warn you I have been called out on it, by DMs even, despite it not being against the rules even a little. But, regardless, here it is. The rules state you must allow an RP out of some kind, it does not say that the OTHER PARTY gets to choose what that out is. It is perfectly within the rules to RP, for example, a Trade Way bandit and accost PCs with the options of "Give me a bag of gold or I will attack." The RP out here is giving you gold. This gives them the option of fighting, giving you money, or attempting to flee. And, while attempting to flee in this case is technically consent, considering the fact that you gave them warning and they get the chance to respond before you can act, they will almost always hit that transition before you can catch them.

While I have never done the above per se, I can give you an example of something I have done recently (and gotten in trouble for, despite, once again, the rules being followed). A PC belonging to a faction my character wants to appear hostile with refuses to call my character by the honorific "Sir" that I demand. I challenge him to an honor duel with the caveat that if he refuses I will give him a coward's death, OR he can simply call me "Sir" or "Lord". He fuses all of the above, and begins to walk away...WALK...away from a threat of death. I remind him again that leaving was not an option I gave him (which still leaves him the option of a legitimate retreat, involving running) and he decides to simply turn his back to me, taking what is coming to him.

Now I imagine this left a sour taste in his mouth (I imagine that because he reported it, although he reported it as griefing as my character was a much higher level, which I didnt even check, but I guess using the scry to metagame another characters level before PVP is something we are encouraging now? lol, sorry, but I'm never doing that) but you know what, it left a sour taste in my mouth too, because the RP threats I made were basically ignored, due to this player attempting to hide behind the RP out rule and think he was safe. That isn't how that works, though, as the RP out rule doesn't stipulate what sort of RP out you have to give.

So basically, despite the rules being the way they are, that doesn't mean you have to dismiss all realism from PVP situations. Still, the rule is cumbersome and unrealistic and should be done away with IMO, or at least streamlined.

Well, we have to decide one thing:

What is RP out?

Must RP out make sense for the "victim"? Is it an "Rp" out if they have to break charchter too do it? (This is the most important question here)

Becuse that is not clear at all, and until it is made clear, this issue will not stop.

[Rhifox]

As I see it, an RP out is offering an opportunity for the victim to end an encounter without fighting. It does not have to be nice, it does not have to be easy. If submitting to the demand or fleeing outright are out of character for your character, then you are making the choice to waive your out.

Outs do not mean you get to get out of a hostile situation without any consequence whatsoever. Bandits accosting you on the Trade Way and demanding gold to leave you alone, paying the gold/fleeing is the out. Someone putting a dagger to your character's throat and threatening to kill you if you don't do X, doing X is your out. Threats should be threatening.


With regard to Hostile setting, you always need to set hostile because many many abilities do not work without it. Personally I'm inclined to set Hostile earlier rather than later, and let the RP determine whether the hostility is actually acted upon.

[NegInfinity]

Yes, it is absolutely needed. It is only here for mechanical purposes, though.

Lots of spells won't work on non-hostile targets and summons won't defend their master if it is attacked by non-hostile target.

The worst thing that can happen to a summoner character, by the way, is getting rightclick-attacked with no warning or indication.

That's just poor sportsmanship.

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It is perfectly within the rules to RP, for example, a Trade Way bandit and accost PCs with the options of "Give me a bag of gold or I will attack." The RP out here is giving you gold. This gives them the option of fighting, giving you money, or attempting to flee. And, while attempting to flee in this case is technically consent, considering the fact that you gave them warning and they get the chance to respond before you can act, they will almost always hit that transition before you can catch them.

"prefectly" within the rules. Nope. Isn't. What is perfectly in the rules is someone can then send a tell that says "not gonna play this", or just simply ignore someone like that. RP is consensual play. You never can "perfectly within the rules" force anybody to do anything, be it flee, fight, or give you gold, unless they are kill on sight.

ESPECIALLY people you know better than to roleplay with, based on past experiences.

"not gonna play this" is a failure to utilize RP opportunity.

When you're given "your money or your life" choices, you can always an option that is not an on the list. You can trick the bandit, for example, bargain with them, join their gang, etc. Or just flee. The other said needs to have a chance to avoid combat through IC means, that does not mean that it is restricted to selecting one of the provided choices.

See, someone went through all the trouble of making an actual bandit, which is playing the game on hard mode. Might as well interact with them.

I don't remember ever seeing even one PC bandit on this server.

P.S. I remember sending "short version of pvp rules" to dm team (same thing, in less sentences), never heard back about it, though...

[NegInfinity]

What is RP out?

It means you give the other side a chance to avoid combat through IC means. That's "RP out" "Allow the enemy to RP their way out of combat". RP outs include fleeing, surrendering, apologizing, diverting hostility, etc.

Now, there are actions that count as auto-consent and situations where no RP out is required, but it is generally the same thing - you initiate hostile encounter, you give them one way to RP their way out of the encounter without fighting.

[TheLier]

What is RP out?

It means you give the other side a chance to avoid combat through IC means. That's "RP out" "Allow the enemy to RP their way out of combat". RP outs include fleeing, surrendering, apologizing, diverting hostility, etc.

Now, there are actions that count as auto-consent and situations where no RP out is required, but it is generally the same thing - you initiate hostile encounter, you give them one way to RP their way out of the encounter without fighting.

I know the basic definition. That one was more of the rethorical question, the second one is the important part.

[Steve]

I just want to add that removing the need to set an opponent Hostile, to remove from the PvP Rules, is an idea possible ONLY if the mechanical aspects of setting Hostile, can be "worked out," I.e. Summons/companions don't attack unless commanded, and all Powers can be used on anyone, all the time (No Refunds for Mis-Clicks! Lol)

[NeOmega]

Simply logging in is consenting to RP with others,

No it isn't. You don't have to RP with anybody, especially people who try to bully around.

and ignoring RP that you don't like doesn't afford you any special protection.

You can't force people to play with you.

All RP should be responded to with more RP,

Nope. Some people don't deserve any kind of respect or response, based on past experiences. RP is for people who have shown respect, or are respectful, should be responded to with more RP. Somebody playing a "bandit" and saying, "your money or your life" does not mean they automatically get to stop another player from doing what they were doing. If the person being held up wants to engage the scenario, it is on. If they don't, they can just walk away.

RP is for people who are trying to add fun to your experience.

Got to respect that bad guy RP too, don't we.

Some people, you don't have to respect at all. Even trying to do so can end up with bad results, because they tend to show no respect in their RP. Some people seem to see RP as a battle of wits, in which they can outwit their "opponent". "force" them to play with them, use the rules to make them play the way they want to play.

Fact of the matter is, nobody has to play with you. You can talk and text all you want and send tells. If they don't like it, they don't have to participate. They don't even have to tell you why they aren't.

[NeOmega]

I don't remember ever seeing even one PC bandit on this server.

I have had it happen to me twice. Surprise surprise, the ++ was on the trade way, and the +++ was on the lower floor of the hilltop ruins.

That's just poor sportsmanship.

This isn't a sport. It's a collaborative storytelling medium.

[Thorsson]

I'm precisely with NeOmega. A$$hattery is a$$hattery, whether it's presented as being IC or not. In my experiences on this server I've never seen any 'bandit' attempt this sort of thing on characters of a higher level. Amazing how their braggadocio disappears in such circumstances.

[NegInfinity]

I have had it happen to me twice. Surprise surprise, the ++ was on the trade way, and the +++ was on the lower floor of the hilltop ruins.

Run to nearest flaming fist and describe the mugger. Then start server-wide bandit hunt. Then have them hanged. Level 1 is perfectly capable of killing level 30 by having powerful friends.

That's just poor sportsmanship.

This isn't a sport. It's a collaborative storytelling medium.

That was a figure of speech.

Some people don't deserve...
Somebody playing a "bandit" and saying, "your money or your life" does not mean they automatically...

You know, with this kind of attitude you are likely to end up being the one who is not collaborating. Also, if you will just try to "ignore" person who's about to shoot you, they'll have to assume that you decided not to take opportunity to RP out of the encounter.

It is a game, the purpose is to have fun, not to hold grudges forever. Also "I'll ignore their RP if I oocly don't like them" is just borderline godmoding in this scenario. Keep in mind that misunderstandings happen too.

[NegInfinity]

I'm precisely with NeOmega. A$$hattery is a$$hattery, whether it's presented as being IC or not. In my experiences on this server I've never seen any 'bandit' attempt this sort of thing on characters of a higher level. Amazing how their braggadocio disappears in such circumstances.

I have not seen a PC bandit on tradeway, ever.

I do remember someone who wanted to pickpocket my character and chickened out when he realized that everybody present is ++ / +++.

Surprise, surprise - all those people had zero spot/listen, and his potential target was loaded gold and jewelry. Could've been an easy money for him(/her?) If said character didn't retreat without doing anything.

[Jepop]

I don't know. I kind of find that completely ignoring someone's RP is a crappy thing to do to someone. Whether it be good guy or bad guy RP. That person is here for the same reason you are and choosing to ignore their RP makes the game less fun for them. We're all here to have fun. I believe it comes down to a lot of people just not liking hostile RP at all, which I understand but completely ignoring that type of RP is not a great way of dealing with it. Role play the situation out and see where it takes you, you may be surprised and end up having a bit of fun. Remember it's not all sunshine and rainbows and campfire stories on this server.

[Thorsson]

I've seen 5-6 PC 'bandits' on the tradeway. And others not on the tradeway.

A couple of times 'bandits' (please note the inverted commas) have attacked my lower level characters and still got their asses busted. Did they stay and take the consequences?

You bet.

NOT.

They took to their heels, and without a hint of RP, they fled through a transition.

Sorry, but I think it's just a$$hats using RP as an excuse to act like a$$hats.

[NegInfinity]

I don't know. I kind of find that completely ignoring someone's RP is a crappy thing to do to someone. Whether it be good guy or bad guy RP. That person is here for the same reason you are and choosing to ignore their RP makes the game less fun for them. We're all here to have fun. I believe it comes down to a lot of people just not liking hostile RP at all, which I understand but completely ignoring that type of RP is not a great way of dealing with it. Role play the situation out and see where it takes you, you may be surprised and end up having a bit of fun. Remember it's not all sunshine and rainbows and campfire stories on this server.

Agree with everything said.

Sorry, but I think it's just a$$hats using RP as an excuse to act like a$$hats.

You're overgeneralizing. Poor behavior should be reported to DM team with screens.

Having grudges, overgeneralizing and jumping to conclusions is not the right way to go about it.
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Also, you could try making a bandit. To see what the situation looks like from the other side.