Petition: Remove/Lower Damage Reduction and why Dexers suck

[Bad Omens]

Negfinity,

If you were to total a word count for all the RP threads I have created across all of my multiple accounts, I assure you I would be in upper 5% of this server and that might even be a conservative estimate. Please do not attempt to change the subject here.

Secondly, I am using the term DPS interchanably with Damage, I am sure everyone can follow. It does not change the content of the argument, or the issue at hand.

[Vhaeraun Baen're]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?241279

you linked a dex build without evasion, expose weakness, or epic dodge. you have a dip

into duelist purely for the AC boost. sorry, but that is unplayable to me.

Also, IIRC bgtscc introduced deadly defense feat which will be adding bonuses to combat

expertise.

Epic dodge? That's for sneakers, not for two-weapon fighters.

hmm, did you take the time to actually read my post? i already mentioned deadly defense

and talked about it. Epic Dodge is not just for sneakers.

There's some disingenuous posts here, with 5 levels of Swashbuckler

seemingly held up as the answer to all issues. There are several problems with the

Str10/Int19 builds:

1. You'll struggle to carry all your gear, let alone loot
2. You don't do damage against crit immunes until you get Combat Insight
3. Combat Insight comes late (for example level 25 in the first of the builds here)

There's also the boring fact that you're constrained into quite a narrow range of

options to make it work.

The problem is, if they did good damage as well then they'd probably be too attractive.

If the Max DR was 5/- on epic mobs/bosses or if DR was replaced with damage immunity

they wouldnt be TOO attractive, they would just be closer to being on par with every

other class that already puts out way too much damage

Either way, by going DEX route player would need to pick some strategy that works. Str

goes to damage and hit chance. Dex goes to hit chance (with finesse) and AC.

Meaning that Str build will hit hard but will be easier to hit, while dex build will

deal less damage but will be harder to hit.

So, Dex build will need to look for ways to add extra damage. Weapon specialization and

weapon mastery feats will definitely help here. Dip into rogue will add sneakattacks at

the cost of 1 AB and few missed feats. Extra damage from bardic inspiration will help,

elemental damage from corresponding classes, etc. Then there's ranged route.

I don't think that "Change the world for my build" is the right mindset.

Ah yes, Finesse. The other reason dex builds are worse than str build - you have to

spend a feat to even get AB. I already pointed out that going Dex doesnt actually help

your AC as it gives you the same AC as heavy armor. You have to dip into Int or Wis for

extra AC (duelist, monk, etc) and Int for damage... you don't see the problem with this?

There's a reason in 5th edition that Dex gives damage bonus for finesse-able weapons

now.

If only there was a way for a dex-based character to expose the

weakness of a creature with such stout defenses. You would have to evade long enough to

find it, but surely there is a way to use such accuracy and finesse to hit that exact

spot where a creature was weakest and essentially apply his dexterity to the enemy in

the form of damage.

*thrusts his tongue firmly into his cheek*

Ah yes, expose weakness, that feat that nearly every single melee build has regardless

of it being a dexer feat.

I don't know what OP feels is lacking, but I'm pretty sure that we as a community can

come up with a working build for just about any reasonable description of a character

concept put to us. But there is always the problem with players wanting to do too much

(being great at archery and melee with the same character is a common desire, for

instance).

I thought I was clear with my post what I felt is lacking. And that is the power level

of dexers in NWN2 as a whole but even more so on BGTSCC. Having to dip 12 levels into

fighter just to off-set DR on every epic mob isnt an acceptable answer to me.

Those whom are responding to this post are driving me crazy!

The OP is saying they want to play a pure Dexer, no sneak dice and no fighter dip,

acknowledging that it is extremely difficult on this server due to the institution of

lower AC/higher DR Epic Mobs.

So, what is the response of everyone?
Here is how you build for power!?!?!

No, I don't think the DR should be reduced.

I can tell you from personal experience that playing a non-sneak dice dexer on this

server in EPIC IS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE without establishing some other way to survive which

for me was making it a GISH with high AC and high DR (on top of HIPS).

What galls me, is that the very answer people are giving, building for power, is what

makes the team put the screws to the DEX builds. Why is Expose Weakness made such a

contentious issue, because Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserkers (don't get me started

there) with a dip in Rogue take it to get 100-200+ DMG hit free each round, when if it

was only used by Dexers with a minimum Dex of 22, the max free hit would be between 5-18

dmg making it a non-issue! Also, it was asked why deadly defense was given 1d4 instead

of 1d6, that is because again, Weapon Master-Frenzied Berserker, can push an extra 1d6 x

4 a Crit to get a possible 24 Dmg on top of 200+ dmg, ala screwing the Dexers whom need

that 1d6 x 2. Lol, so instead of saying let's institute again and minimum Dex Req. of

20-22 for Deadly Defense, I can only imagine that it was to enticing for someone to put

an extra 1d4 x 4 onto their builds and instituted it.

I say, stop talking of and actually nerfing Dex-based feats and start adding appropriate

Dex-Requirements so POWERBUILDERS STOP ABUSING THEM. Lol, all these people saying here,

well if you rebuild your Dex for power.......what if the guy likes his Ranger-Bard-

Harper Agent RP?????

thank you.

Bumpity bump.

The following has been my opinion since this server began. The WM/FB builds are one of the reasons why mobs have more HP than tgey should. The developers raised the HP totals of mobs because WM/FB were destroying everything. It's too bad the WM/FB was not adjusted years ago. How much damage would the FB have caused if it's bonus damage required being in frenzy?

thank you.

**rant omitted as posted three times already**
what if the guy likes his Ranger-Bard-Harper Agent RP?????

Actually if you read the signature it's a Swashbuckler/Shadowdancer and not an Orc-hugger.

Which makes him one feat away from solving his own issue: Expose Weakness. Level 21. With his present build, it solves his present problem.

With some of the feats we recently added, it's even more playable.

my build has expose weakness, of course. It is basically required here, after all.

Mentalist,

I am not going to quibble with someone trying to wag the dog here.
Mobs were given DR and High HP to combat Powerbuilt DPS builds.
Powerbuilt DPS builds utilize selectable Dex Feats to further their strength.
Dex Feats are dumbed down, or much maligned because of this.
Dex builds, no matter the RP reason, are being told they have to take DPS class dips to compete (you are advocating this yourself for everything save the Cavestalker & Monk Classes).
So, instead of correcting the issue, you are saying they need to join the crowd.

Again, I am not advocating a drop in DR, or HP nerf of mobs.
But, I do think that things can be done to help level the playing field.
Dex Requirements do this.

People were "exploiting" Practiced Spell Caster and Dispel Bugs, they were fixed.
I don't understand why Strength DPS builds being able to take Dex Feats is any different?

if that is true it makes no damn sense. why would you put DR on mobs to combat huge hits instead of damage immunity? 25-50% damage immunity would make much more sense than 10/- DR. All that did was screw over people that didnt hit hard with their builds and forced them to power build and dip into fighter or swash etc

Dex builds, no matter the RP reason, are being told they have to take DPS class dips to compete (you are advocating this yourself for everything save the Cavestalker & Monk Classes).
So, instead of correcting the issue, you are saying they need to join the crowd.

Are Swashbackler, Weapon Master, Tempest, Dervish, Fighter STR only classes?

considering WM doesnt multiply anything for a dex fighter im not sure why you'd take it

[Thorsson]

considering WM doesnt multiply anything for a dex fighter im not sure why you'd take it

It multiplies what little damage you have, which helps with that DR. But it's a right pain on a TWF build unless you invest heavily in Fighter, which was my point about the narrow range of possibilities to do half-decent damage.

Thing is that you can make a Strength (G)TWF build that does as much damage very easily, and they'll have all that damage against everything, from the off, and not have carrying problems.

I think it would be great if Dex could be added to damage in some way that was NOT open to Strength builds. The only way I can see, however, is to make it a high Dex requirement, which would be another "wait until Epics" feature.

[The Whistler]

I think it would be great if Dex could be added to damage in some way that was NOT open to Strength builds. The only way I can see, however, is to make it a high Dex requirement, which would be another "wait until Epics" feature.

Swashbucklers could get a feat like insightful strike which adds damage off of DEX for finessable weapons but which is also gated by class level.

Perhaps it could be made available to more classes, but having sneak attack on top of that would definitely be a no-no for this server.

[AC81]

So , if I'm understanding this, you want:
A Dex build that does damage on par with a known dps power build
Without sneak dice,
Without being strength reliant,
Without dipping into classes that can boost damage in other ways.

There are many ways to build Dex PCs on this server. But I'm not sure a build with the above restrictions will go well on any server. Why don't you tell us what mobs are hurting you and post your build and we can work with that.

On the issue of dps builds, I agree with m3nt. We should enforce the no or light armour component of evasion to then promote expose weakness to Dex and Wis based builds.

[mrm3ntalist]

So , if I'm understanding this, you want:
A Dex build that does damage on par with a known dps power build
Without sneak dice,
Without being strength reliant,
Without dipping into classes that can boost damage in other ways.

There are many ways to build Dex PCs on this server. But I'm not sure a build with the above restrictions will go well on any server. Why don't you tell us what mobs are hurting you and post your build and we can work with that.

And if we do it, then those builds that dip into classes to boost damage in other ways, will end up with damage close to WM/FB with twice the attacks and much higher AC. They could even have hips.

[NegInfinity]

Ah yes, Finesse. The other reason dex builds are worse than str build - you have to

spend a feat to even get AB. I already pointed out that going Dex doesnt actually help

your AC as it gives you the same AC as heavy armor.

"I want dex build without taking finesse and I want to solo bosses with it".

Grab a bow.
Also, it gives you higher ac than fullplate.
Dex build with a towershield will end up having higher ac than fullplate with a towershield. See fullplate has max ac it can give you. Dex ac is uncapped.

considering WM doesnt multiply anything for a dex fighter im not sure why you'd take it

Dude. WM multiply damage from any source. Dex, Int, Wis, Divine Might, Bardic Inspiration and even Damage bonus from Enlrage person. It doesn't multiply elemental damage from bonuses, but anything else works with it.

Just head to the Character Builder forum. You need it.

[Vhaeraun Baen're]

"I want dex build without taking finesse and I want to solo bosses with it".

thats not what im saying at all, and dont put words in my mouth

Grab a bow.
Also, it gives you higher ac than fullplate.
Dex build with a towershield will end up having higher ac than fullplate with a towershield. See fullplate has max ac it can give you. Dex ac is uncapped.

did you read my original post? starting with 20 dex, putting every point into dex and with +3 dex equipment you're maxing out at ~10AC which is the same ac as the best full plate. You're thinking of NWN1 if you think that dex builds get a significant AC boost over str builds

considering WM doesnt multiply anything for a dex fighter im not sure why you'd take it

Dude. WM multiply damage from any source. Dex, Int, Wis, Divine Might, Bardic Inspiration and even Damage bonus from Enlrage person. It doesn't multiply elemental damage from bonuses, but anything else works with it.

Just head to the Character Builder forum. You need it.

WM does not multiply damage from any source. I have spent hundreds of hours making builds. Maybe it is you that needs to spend time on the char build forums

[Vhaeraun Baen're]

So , if I'm understanding this, you want:
A Dex build that does damage on par with a known dps power build
Without sneak dice,
Without being strength reliant,
Without dipping into classes that can boost damage in other ways.

I think that builds that go with PTWF (which is the most appealing thing in NWN2 about dex builds) should do excellent damage, yes.

There are many ways to build Dex PCs on this server. But I'm not sure a build with the above restrictions will go well on any server. Why don't you tell us what mobs are hurting you and post your build and we can work with that.

On the issue of dps builds, I agree with m3nt. We should enforce the no or light armour component of evasion to then promote expose weakness to Dex and Wis based builds.

This is not a ME specific problem. This is a server wide problem.

no evasion in medium/heavy armor used to be a core NWN2 thing, but it was changed it a patch. I have no idea why

[Vhaeraun Baen're]

considering WM doesnt multiply anything for a dex fighter im not sure why you'd take it

It multiplies what little damage you have, which helps with that DR. But it's a right pain on a TWF build unless you invest heavily in Fighter, which was my point about the narrow range of possibilities to do half-decent damage.

Thing is that you can make a Strength (G)TWF build that does as much damage very easily, and they'll have all that damage against everything, from the off, and not have carrying problems.

I think it would be great if Dex could be added to damage in some way that was NOT open to Strength builds. The only way I can see, however, is to make it a high Dex requirement, which would be another "wait until Epics" feature.

I really hope youre on the QC team

[joleda]

These kinds of discussions occur every now and then and they're healthy for the server. It's unfortunate that they become so passionate.

Evasion working in heavy and medium armor has been broken for so long that the server has been balanced around this fact. Fixing it would actually nerf non-magical characters since Evasion is "needed" in epic levels.

I believe it was broken in the same official patch that broke uncanny dodge.

[NegInfinity]

I have spent hundreds of hours making builds.

(-_-)
Say whatever you want, I still recommend to go to char building forums.

[AC81]

Petition to Remove/Lower Damage Reduction on mobs
(aka why dual wielding dex fighters without sneak attack suck)

I don't think they do ... there are many examples of non-sneak dual-wielding dex fighters NOT sucking. People just have to accept that they'll have to look for damage sources in other prc's or pick their feats carefully.

You even said this:

"I think that builds that go with PTWF (which is the most appealing thing in NWN2 about dex builds) should do excellent damage, yes."

1. No magic bags to put loot in. In NWN1 you could get away with low strength because of magic bags, but they dont exist here.

Meh. I kind of agree with this one. Magic bags would be nice, so would persistent storage. But honestly, if anyone is going to roll a low-strength pipsqueak then they shouldn't be able to lug around a ton of gear. Choices ...

2. You can have Evasion in heavy armor.

100% agree. Evasion should be cancelled in medium or heavy armour. That'll put a stop to fullplate FB/WM, Favoured Souls and Dwarven Defenders that grab expose weakness.

3. Low AC as a dexer, especially when dual-wielding.

Disagree. Dex'ers can have very high AC. A dedicated dex'er will get 30 dex easily, usually more like 32 to 34. This means +11 or 12 AC. Add in a +4 Armour item and you are equal to or ahead of a 16 dex mithral fullplate wearing pc (8 base +3dex +4 Armour). The benefit with dex'ers is that they won't need power attack for damage, so should pick ICE for another 6 AC. If needed they can also use a shield (just like a str fighter). Granted, a str-fighter can also pick ICE, but then they lose damage - a dex-fighter doesn't.

4. Epic Dodge is hard to obtain.

True. But it's one of the best feats in the game. It should be hard to get. Very hard. Epic dodge can be had by anything with rogue 13+ or monk/shadow dancers.

5. Obtaining not one but two good weapons (is difficult).

Wrong. In fact now it is about to get much easier. With epic weapons ( and finessable ones at that) becoming available in stores, being an effective dual-wielder is better than ever.

6. Deadly Defense is 1d4.

Better than nothing and pretty much in line with maximum enchantment on weapons that are still on the loot table. Also, not sure on this on, but that damage used to be magic ... if that's still the case, then it is quite powerful.

I've tried to keep my thoughts specific and unbiased. But I would repeat again, exactly what build is it that cannot do well on this server? Because people have thrown up plenty of dex-based TWF builds that do very well ... so why is your experience so different I wonder?

[Bad Omens]

Hey Baen're,

I understand your frustration absolutely.
I don't know if I share your vision, unfortunately.

Dexterity should not equate to damage, or a feat which gives Dex stat bonus damage points.
I do believe again, that some of the feats which were intended for Dexterity Builds be given Dex Requirements. Dex builds would be so much more welcomed and in demand for parties, despite the fact that other builds can tank and do triple damage, if they are the only ones that can drop the AC on the Balor/Boss using Expose Weakness. That really is the name of the game here, making players builds feel more necessary and unique! Nothing is worse than feeling arbitrary in a party.

Also, % Damage Reduction vs. Flat Damage Reduction is interesting

[Thorsson]

Evasion working in heavy and medium armor has been broken for so long that the server has been balanced around this fact. Fixing it would actually nerf non-magical characters since Evasion is "needed" in epic levels.

It's no different to fixing Uncanny Dodge and Caster Level. Nevertheless, all it would do would kick Strength Melees - our dear Casters would be even further ahead of the pack...

Maybe if that non-canon raise of spell damage went away...