Looking over an edge

[Dagesh]

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No? Seems like you went out of your way (by dint of this being the first thread you've chosen to comment on) to make a comment about the player on an OOC level that you didn't initially back up with this insistence of the (btw, negatively-phrased) "attention circus" his death has earned not being warranted, etc.

You guys are really stressed about post counts here. Clarification was made because the comment was misconstrued. To summarize,

Kagger: Bad guys lose, good guys win.
Dagesh: Look at the dead Lathanderite.
Fury: He's not exactly losing; look at all the attention that's coming of it. Apples and oranges.
Chorus: How dare you!
Fury: I didn't say he's a bad guy, just that the situations aren't comparable.
Chorus: How dare you!

Kagger has actually, if I'm not mistaken, gotten a lot of RP himself out of the situation you're picking on, and nobody has told him to stfu.

No one's discussing Kagger's relationship to that particular situation. Rather, the broader topic is "How can I execute the role I want for my character in a way that's positive for the community at large?"

This is a bit less than helpful. It's like...you gotta stop trolling, man.

Misinterpretation has been ably corrected, but there's still this enduring need to defend the role play around a dead PC that no one is criticizing (because people are either misreading or reading with a bias), and it's distracting from the original intent of the thread.

The point in bringing a PC who died was to consider how folks RP losing. It was an example of two things, good and evil both lose sometimes and how to respond to that loss. If your personal opinion is that people giving attention to an IC death isn't loss that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Consider this, though, next time your PC dies, stop playing it for two weeks and see how fun/winning that is. Also consider that the reaction is the opinion of those players who RP'd with the fellow before died.

I do think Kagger nailed it when he said this:

I guess I just care about people's opinion too much. Alright, game plan set. Hope you guys enjoy the show.

[NegInfinity]

That's DM's policing DM's just a higher teir of DM appointed to the judge for that lower teir DM.

And this is how it should be.

DM decides the course of the world and the story. If you have a trouble with DM, you report him/her to HDM. If you have issue with HDM you bring it to Adminstrator. If you have issue with administrator, you leave.

In the end team contributes a lot of their personal time for free to provide you the world to interact with. Asking for some sort of pseudo-democratic government where majority will boss around DM - it is simply wrong in this situation, and may indicate high distrust to the team.

----

Also, it would be nice if people didn't bring dead lathandrites into discussion without asking their opinions first. See, those players can speak for themselves.

[mrm3ntalist]

Simply stating the differences in jobs and titles is not answering or attending to the comment i gave. But thank you for your answer DM Ditto it is nice that you shed a bit of light on the matter.

Comparing a PW to a court or any democratic system does not help either. Every server has an owner. Thats it. Just because as a community, the players opinion's about how the server should be administrated are taken into consideration doesnt mean that this is a democracy. Not even close.

In anycase, you just got a sneak preview about what happens when you openly criticize others. Talking about unfair critisism.

[Blackhorizon]

I'm not blaming you in particular, nor judging you. But to see my point, you should see things in perspective ; the whole picture. How often you meet people willing to play ball versus the "crushing evil no matter what" mindset, then slap a percentage on it.

As this thread starter states, and many others, even if they follow the rules, peer pressure gets to most evil players in the long run, and nothing works better for peer pressure than sheer number.

I did not think you were blaming either. I was merely pointing out it is possible and that there are people willing to play along.

While the server is geared towards good perhaps, there are avenues to take as an evil char.

[kkrazlite]

Simply stating the differences in jobs and titles is not answering or attending to the comment i gave. But thank you for your answer DM Ditto it is nice that you shed a bit of light on the matter.

Comparing a PW to a court or any democratic system does not help either. Every server has an owner. Thats it. Just because as a community, the players opinion's about how the server should be administrated are taken into consideration doesnt mean that this is a democracy. Not even close.

In anycase, you just got a sneak preview about what happens when you openly criticize others. Talking about unfair critisism.

I'm simply giving my opinion. There is no hostility from me nor would there be, this is not my game nor is it my server and this forum is here for a reason. To allow us the players and the DM's to discuss and compromise how the game and the server could improve and opinions matter in that case.

I guess you forgot to read that part.

[RedLancer]

In an effort to highlight that being dead, regardless of positive RP that has come of it, is hard to term as "winning," one should think.

The difference being highlighted is what Kagger is dealing with on an OOC level v. what the resident dead Lathanderite has going on as a result of the death. Ultimately, evil loses, a point Kagger was making, and Eldarian's death was brought up as an example of a good guy losing and also as an example of a way to use such a loss creatively.

The distinction being drawn is that Eldarian's death has this very positive creative component to it, but in Kagger's situation, whether he "wins" or "loses," he's trying to address what seems to him to be an OOC prejudice against his RP. That's the focus of the discussion.

[mrm3ntalist]

I guess you forgot to read that part.

I guess you forgot to read that part too. Unless it is only you that can express an opinion.

Openly criticizing DMs??? In which world would that suggestion ever work? On an imaginary, perfect world it can work. The internet aint it.

Openly criticizing others ( players or DMs ) will most certainly result in a toxic environment and critisism will be made mostly based on assumptions.

I'm simply giving my opinion. There is no hostility from me nor would there be, this is not my game nor is it my server and this forum is here for a reason. To allow us the players and the DM's to discuss and compromise how the game and the server could improve and opinions matter in that case.

Eh? We all give our opinions here. Why you feel the need to highlight it? Its not like someone prevented you from doing it...

[NegInfinity]

I guess you forgot to read that part.

Well, you now know what opinion people hold about your opinion.

The difference being highlighted is what Kagger is dealing with on an OOC level v. what the resident dead Lathanderite has going on as a result of the death. Ultimately, evil loses, a point Kagger was making, and Eldarian's death was brought up as an example of a good guy losing and also as an example of a way to use such a loss creatively.

You cannot lose at roleplay. As I said before, death can be a great conclusion for a story. You die and win. It is not a loss. A great IC permadeath is a win in my book.

And speaking of kagger, if anybody harasses him OOC, those people should be reported to DMs and dealt with. If he didn't break any rules, he should continue whatever he was doing.

In some IC dislike starts seeping into OOC behavior and conflict escalates from character-to-character conflict to player-versus-player conflict. I think that when this happens, the other side needs some talking to.

Either way. I would highly appreciate if all the people who posted in the thread logged on and played in the game instead. That would surely make the world more entertaining.

[kkrazlite]

Why you feel the need to highlight it? Its not like someone prevented you from doing it.

Making a opinion and stating your points would require you to advertise them no? So why are you questioning my position in highlighting what i prefer to give as a question or concern?

That is indeed a good way of assessing the situation Mr. Quality Control Man.

[kkrazlite]

I guess you forgot to read that part.

Well, you now know what opinion people hold about your opinion.

The difference being highlighted is what Kagger is dealing with on an OOC level v. what the resident dead Lathanderite has going on as a result of the death. Ultimately, evil loses, a point Kagger was making, and Eldarian's death was brought up as an example of a good guy losing and also as an example of a way to use such a loss creatively.

You cannot lose at roleplay. As I said before, death can be a great conclusion for a story. You die and win. It is not a loss. A great IC permadeath is a win in my book.

And speaking of kagger, if anybody harasses him OOC, those people should be reported to DMs and dealt with. If he didn't break any rules, he should continue whatever he was doing.

In some IC dislike starts seeping into OOC behavior and conflict escalates from character-to-character conflict to player-versus-player conflict. I think that when this happens, the other side needs some talking to.

Either way. I would highly appreciate if all the people who posted in the thread logged on and played in the game instead. That would surely make the world more entertaining.

Cool ill do that right now. +1

[mrm3ntalist]

Why you feel the need to highlight it? Its not like someone prevented you from doing it.

Making a opinion and stating your points would require you to advertise them no? So why are you questioning my position in highlighting what i prefer to give as a question or concern?

That is indeed a good way of assessing the situation Mr. Quality Control Man.

I am certain you wouldnt have an issue if I said "+1"

While you are very keen to give your opinion and criticise others, you dont seem to handle others opinions or critisism very well.

[thids]

I would also add:
Don't do something IC that you wouldn't normally do just because a DM isn't online.

Which happens so frequently it's not even funny, and brings us back to "stupid" behavior(be it stupid evil or good), like waltzing around in areas where you know the NPC guards are going to hand you your ass on a silver platter(in some cases only hours after PvP'ing or committing a crime nearby), and then acting aggressive IC'ly or initiating PvP some more.

The long and short of it is: if everyone simply adhered to the rules, abided by the setting, and refrained from godmodding, metagaming, or sharing meta-info in any way shape or form, then the playing environment and player Vs. player conflict would be 100 times more enjoyable.

I would also add:
If you can't roleplay your way out of a paper bag without spamming the "set to hostile" every single time, then perhaps you should consider not playing a highly confrontational character until you learn how to do so.


But to the point of rules, Snarfy your statement doesn't really always hold truth in reality, seeing as some of those rules are flawed to begin with. I mean you stated it right there yourself... "like waltzing around in areas where you know the NPC guards are going to hand you your ass on a silver platter". Would they though? Can they overpower every single character? How about a group of characters? It's one of those things that we have to find ways to RP around with silly IC excuses, I wouldn't really blame people for slipping up at times.

[kkrazlite]

I would also add:
Don't do something IC that you wouldn't normally do just because a DM isn't online.

Which happens so frequently it's not even funny, and brings us back to "stupid" behavior(be it stupid evil or good), like waltzing around in areas where you know the NPC guards are going to hand you your ass on a silver platter(in some cases only hours after PvP'ing or committing a crime nearby), and then acting aggressive IC'ly or initiating PvP some more.

The long and short of it is: if everyone simply adhered to the rules, abided by the setting, and refrained from godmodding, metagaming, or sharing meta-info in any way shape or form, then the playing environment and player Vs. player conflict would be 100 times more enjoyable.

I would also add:
If you can't roleplay your way out of a paper bag without spamming the "set to hostile" every single time, then perhaps you should consider not playing a highly confrontational character until you learn how to do so.


But to the point of rules, Snarfy your statement doesn't really always hold truth in reality, seeing as some of those rules are flawed to begin with. I mean you stated it right there yourself... "like waltzing around in areas where you know the NPC guards are going to hand you your ass on a silver platter". Would they though? Can they overpower every single character? How about a group of characters? It's one of those things that we have to find ways to RP around with silly IC excuses, I wouldn't really blame people for slipping up at times.

That's just a problem that would be easily be solved with more active in game DM's to take control and "Show" those things happening. With the appointment of new DM's soon this could and should be solved.

[Snarfy]

The distinction being drawn is that Eldarian's death has this very positive creative component to it...

It sure does. Mind you, "two week long attention circus" doesn't have a very positive connotation to it.

... but in Kagger's situation, whether he "wins" or "loses," he's trying to address what seems to him to be an OOC prejudice against his RP. That's the focus of the discussion.

And yet, there isn't a single drop of OOC prejudice levied against him in this thread. Whether or not the prejudice Kagger experiences IG are OOC or IC we'll never know, because we're not him. Not that OOC prejudice should bear any relevance on how anyone plays their character. If he's being harassed in tells, or in a metagame'y fashion, then he should screenshot these occurrences. Problem solved. There really shouldn't be any more need for a debate on the patently obvious: Character separation is a good thing. Keep it IC folks.

And, at the risk of sounding like a broken record...

... if everyone simply adhered to the rules, abided by the setting, and refrained from godmodding, metagaming, or sharing meta-info in any way shape or form, then the playing environment and player Vs. player conflict would be 100 times more enjoyable.

[Ghost]

This is becoming too much about one character, and we have been asked to lock the thread, which I will.

Remember, though, that this is collaborative storytelling. Always make sure that the other side also enjoys the RP. "Winning" and "losing" should only be considered IC. OOC, everyone should feel like winners. Because winning in roleplay is simply about enjoying the experience.