Petition: Remove/Lower Damage Reduction and why Dexers suck

[NegInfinity]

Disagreeing doesn't change facts. starting at 20 dex, which not all dex builds do, you cap at 27 dex at lv 30.

The maximum achievable dex is 37, not 27.
That gives you +15 ac from dex modifier alone with +3 dex item.
In addition to that, you can equip +4 clothes, tower shield +3, and enable ICE (+6 modifier).

That would give you...

10 base +15 from dex +3 from boots +3 from ring +3 from amulet + 6 from ice +4 from towershield +3 from tower shield enchantment +4 from clothes +1 from dodge +1 from LoH:

53 AC unbuffed without investing even one point into tumble.

You can increase it by 3 points if you manage to find +4 amulet, boots and ring.

You can increase it by at least one point if you invest into tumble.

You can increase it by one more point if you take shield specialization feat.

You can increase it by one more point by picking weapon supremacy.

With that in mind... +1 (tumble) +1 (shield specialization) +1 (supremacy) +3 rare gear:

57 ac unbuffed.

If +4 tower shields exist, it'll be 58.

Good luck getting similar values with str build.

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As I said before, you need to head to character building forum, post your build and say which area you have trouble with.

[Deathgrowl]

Well. Only achievable by fighter30, if I'm not mistaken. And while it does get good AC and probably decent AB, the damage is nothing to cheer about.

But as I stated earlier in the thread, I don't know what OP is trying to do with a dex build, but if he/she gives a description of a character he/she wants to play, I'm pretty sure the community can come up with a viable build for him/her.

[Thorsson]

With two feats, even a normal full plate has 11 AC, and you can even stop at 12 buffed dex.

Yes, but that requires investment...

[Deathgrowl]

[NegInfinity]

Well. Only achievable by fighter30, if I'm not mistaken. And while it does get good AC and probably decent AB, the damage is nothing to cheer about.

But as I stated earlier in the thread, I don't know what OP is trying to do with a dex build, but if he/she gives a description of a character he/she wants to play, I'm pretty sure the community can come up with a viable build for him/her.

Yup. Fgtr26/Rogue4 will be able to get the same due to rogue unlocking tumble, but will have lower AB (46 vs 48 with mundane weapon) and 2..4 less dex. On other hand, it will also have sneak dice, evasion and uncanny dodge (fightr 30 will get instantly destroyed once it becomes flat-footed). Other single class builds (Rogue 30, Monk 30) should be able to get close to that number as well.

Basically, it is a tank. Walk into middle of the battlefield, and tickle enemies to death while they're desperately trying to kill you. For extra fun, invest into taunt and wield a spoon instead of weapon. It is a pity that it has no weapon focus for it, though. (Yeah, I know all the ways this build can die horribly). It can also work as a defensive mode for an archer/crossbowman too.

Also, I agree with you. Op should post a build and tell which area he has trouble with. After "hundreds of hours building" I'd expect him to know about Fgtr30 trick, "Great Dexterity", etc.

[Kagger911]

Disagreeing doesn't change facts. starting at 20 dex, which not all dex builds do, you cap at 27 dex at lv 30.

The maximum achievable dex is 37, not 27.
That gives you +15 ac from dex modifier alone with +3 dex item.
In addition to that, you can equip +4 clothes, tower shield +3, and enable ICE (+6 modifier).

That would give you...

10 base +15 from dex +3 from boots +3 from ring +3 from amulet + 6 from ice +4 from towershield +3 from tower shield enchantment +4 from clothes +1 from dodge +1 from LoH:

53 AC unbuffed without investing even one point into tumble.

You can increase it by 3 points if you manage to find +4 amulet, boots and ring.

You can increase it by at least one point if you invest into tumble.

You can increase it by one more point if you take shield specialization feat.

You can increase it by one more point by picking weapon supremacy.

With that in mind... +1 (tumble) +1 (shield specialization) +1 (supremacy) +3 rare gear:

57 ac unbuffed.

If +4 tower shields exist, it'll be 58.

Good luck getting similar values with str build.

----

As I said before, you need to head to character building forum, post your build and say which area you have trouble with.

Hips and Haste are your AC, and I best you arn't dipping into UMD so you can use all those wands that help boost you even more than what it is, and if you don't want umd. That's on you.

[Vhaeraun Baen're]

found this interesting discussion http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=51533

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

The main problem boils down to that Rogue 3 dip for STR builds. Those three levels allow for access to :

1. Evasion
2. Expose Weakness

There should be Dexterity requirement for EW, and armor requirement for Evasion (light or none).

[finneas]

I guess I don't really understand the point though. From what I've seen and played both sneakers and strength fighters are viable here. I know that there are combat insight melee'ers that are viable as well. I guess evasion requiring light/no armor makes sense but seems that it'll just force another complete rebalance of the areas and monsters that take advantage of such things much like the dispel mechanics have done. These classes are still inferior to casters anyway when it comes to soloing and there is no point in just clawing for the scraps that are left over. The real power comes when one of these fighter types gets into a party where a wizard/cleric/druid can help augment their strengths and protect their weaknesses. Not every class combination is going to be able to solo bosses. If your intent is that, build something that can solo.

[NegInfinity]

The main problem boils down to that Rogue 3 dip for STR builds. Those three levels allow for access to :

1. Evasion
2. Expose Weakness

There should be Dexterity requirement for EW, and armor requirement for Evasion (light or none).

You know what? I would agree on light/no armor requirement for evasion, because it is in accordance with PnP:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue ... gueEvasion

However, dex requirement for Expose Weakness does not sound right to me. I also cannot find a PnP feat on which Expose Weakness is based.

Also, as I already said, this is not a right place for petitions, and the op should still post the build in the character building forums.

[Vhaeraun Baen're]

I guess I don't really understand the point though. From what I've seen and played both sneakers and strength fighters are viable here. I know that there are combat insight melee'ers that are viable as well. I guess evasion requiring light/no armor makes sense but seems that it'll just force another complete rebalance of the areas and monsters that take advantage of such things much like the dispel mechanics have done. These classes are still inferior to casters anyway when it comes to soloing and there is no point in just clawing for the scraps that are left over. The real power comes when one of these fighter types gets into a party where a wizard/cleric/druid can help augment their strengths and protect their weaknesses. Not every class combination is going to be able to solo bosses. If your intent is that, build something that can solo.

i dont think anyone will argue that sneakers and str fights arent viable here

[NegInfinity]

i dont think anyone will argue that sneakers and str fights arent viable here

Try corner sneak without HiPS.

Also, try to solo anything with Str fighter 30.

Non-magical builds tend to get outclassed in epic levels. They're perfectly playable up to level 20. but past that point they often start having problems and get destroyed routinely without a party.

[finneas]

I don't know. I hate magic, casting, gishes and only play non magical classes here. I have several 30's that can solo at least some bosses without magic. Sure, pure fighter 30 isn't optimal. 30 levels of most single classes isn't optimal. It sounds like you are arguing that every single combination of classes should be perfectly equal though. I can't think of any game where the designers have gotten balance perfect. It matters less here as the storytelling is more important (at least to me) than pure game mechanics. D&D was always about groups and parties, not about one person soloing their way through the DM's world/dungeon/module. Trying to balance everything around 1v1, pvp, pve, group dynamics and powerbuilding is likely impossible and not worth the effort. There are a good variety of builds for most archtypes that work here. You'll always be able to find one that doesn't if you look hard enough.

[Vhaeraun Baen're]

It sounds like you are arguing that every single combination of classes should be perfectly equal though.

im not, at all