Requesting ruling: speaking while polymorphing.

[NegInfinity]

I'm requesting official ruling on speaking while polymorphed.

To my knowledge, a polymorphed druid/whatever can only speak common if his form speaks common. Otehrwise they should speak whatever language their form knows. (Monster manual does not list any languages for elementals, even elder ones)

However, occasionally I bump into talking elementals (polymorphed druids) and such.

What is the official DM stance on this?

[Syracuse]

Heya, Neg.

So, I did a little diggin after our encounter, and the best I could find was in this thread!

http://www.bgtscc.net/posting.php?mode= ... 2&p=264363

Wherein the best I could find was,

3.) Treants can speak common in the Lore, so you can speak while in treant form. Elementals speak the elemental languages (auran, aquan, ignan, and terran), but "rarely choose to do so." Does this mean they could vocalize in the common tongue if they wanted? I really don't know. Judgment call there, I guess. I'm going to say "probably," since in-game those languages are vocalized and not based on gestures or something else.

So I'm kinda interested myself. I've so far followed the guidelines regarding the animal language, but with elementals, that it was ever a question, I'm not sure! They got a language. They can speak it. It's a language that can be mastered by things that aren't elementals. So, I didn't see why not.

But, that's there's a 'I don't know' does mean that there's room to say no if the team chooses! I'd like to see a official call, if anyone could provide it.

[DM Ditto]

My personal call:

If the form you have shapeshifted into cannot speak Common, then it cannot speak Common - legibly, at least. Your form can try to speak Common if it has the mouth structure and vocal cords to make noise, but unless the mouth was shaped appropriately, the attempt would be very difficult to understand.

Exceptions may include treant form, as Maecius pointed out. If you are in a DM event it may be appropriate to touch base with the DM, in case they have a different opinion on the matter.

[NegInfinity]

Heya, Neg.

So, I did a little diggin after our encounter, and the best I could find was in this thread!

The encounter you speak of pretty much sparked my interest. Basically, I encountered both types of druids - speaking and non-speaking ones, and didn't know which one is "right". I find non-speaking druids more interesting to interact with.

The problem with elementals is that they start with 4 int, and don't have mental ability for bonus languages. Even elder ones have 10. So I'm not sure about them being able to speak common.

Treants are explicitly listed to know common, sylvan and treant.

The interesting thing is that there seems to be a "master of many forms" class that explicitly mentions ability to speak while polymorphed ("master of many forms" gets that ability at level 1). Druids don't get that ability.

[Syracuse]

My personal call:

If the form you have shapeshifted into cannot speak Common, then it cannot speak Common - legibly, at least. Your form can try to speak Common if it has the mouth structure and vocal cords to make noise, but unless the mouth was shaped appropriately, the attempt would be very difficult to understand.

I'm not sure if this is the place to 'interject', or argue a point. So forgive me if it isn't. I can only assume that portions of the DM team are debating this behind closed curtains, and I love ya Ditto! But I gotta disagree with your call.

We're talking about magical creatures, here. Worgs can speak common, but they're evil, intelligent wolves. They should, by all accounts, not have the vocal chords to speak the common language. or be unable to communicate in their own special language which is, unsurprisingly, wolfish stuff.

The fact that a creature can share the same language as a fire elemental demonstrates that you don't have to be a being of energy to speak it. How would they even begin to pop, and crackle, like a fire elemental would? Or the language of a earth elemental, which would presumably be, were it a language without a alphabet and merely strange noises, stone grinding against stone?

Science and anatomy go out the window on this one in my honest opinion. A elemental also doesn't have a 'brain', yet demonstrates alien desires. Sure, we summon and command them, but considering there are entire planes mostly comprised of these weird things, they must do something in their spare time. It doesn't have a heart, or blood, yet can be destroyed and killed, and has a means of locomotion akin to bipedal creatures. Nothing makes sense when we get into magical creatures... they just do what they're going to do.

If I had to guess? The only reason why they don't speak the common language is because they rarely talk, at all. And why would you, when your desires are completely and utterly inhuman? What's the point? Just something to bring to the declaration. I don't mean to be a contrarian, but I really don't see why they wouldn't be able to, considering they can share a language with other players just under a different type. This already demonstrates that they, somehow, can communicate with beings different than itself.

[DM Ditto]

"Magic" goes a long way to explain why certain things happen, indeed, which is why a treant can somehow speak Common!

Be that as it may, not every creature and not every form is magical, and not all of them are built to speak Common. A wolf or bear, even from a wildshaped druid, is still physically that animal, and has the restrictions it would imply. For magical creatures where there is no definite lore source of them having spoken Common (e.g. the treant), the decision on if they would have the capability, either by physical anatomy or magic, would have to be under DM fiat. It is a topic that I may raise with the rest of the team to see if they wish to reach a consensus on the matter.

Do not be afraid to disagree with me, as even as a DM my pink-text opinion is no better or worse than any other's, and it may not be shared with other DMs and they have their own individual calls to make - until an eventual ruling. That being said, if the circumstance does come up in a DM event that I run, then what I posted before is the call I will make in the matter until further notice.

[Syracuse]

"It is a topic that I may raise with the rest of the team to see if they wish to reach a consensus on the matter.

Do not be afraid to disagree with me...

Hey, no worries there, I'm a total contrarian on the odd day! I won't say you don't have points, but I will contend my own.

I do super hope that a consensus can be found, though. It can be very immersion breaking for everyone involved when one DM says one thing can work, and another doesn't. I'd just like a clear concise ruling myself since I've got a vested interested in the topic, and keeping the RP streamlined is kinda important for me.

It gets a little flustering when people expect you to do something not understanding that the DM's not sharing your view, especially when you've been doing it for a while outside of a DM's supervision.

At any rate, I'll keep an eye open for a collective ruling in the future, and don't worry, won't be a fuss on the game itself if we end up in a event with one another.

[NegInfinity]

Worgs can speak common, but they're evil, intelligent wolves. They should, by all accounts,

There's a catch.

Druids have "awakening" spell. The spell when cast upon animals, increases animal's hd, int/wis (to human-like values). It also grants them ability to speak... and turns them into magical beast.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm

Worg is a magical beast.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/worg.htm
Wolf is an animal.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm

[ZabelSword]

What about a sorcerer's familiar? I have seen them talk in other games, specifically the original Baldur's Gate.

[Blackman D]

familiars have the supernatural abilities speak with kind and speak with master

they can only communicate with other animals that are the same as them and only with their own master, the master grants the familiar any one language that they can speak

the master also gains (in pnp) 1 mile empathy with familiar, can tell when they are in danger etc when they are within range, very handy given the price of your familiars death is rather high in pnp to the point that a lot of casters never call one

[Blackman D]

should also be noted that for familiars they are not initial abilities, they gain them based on their masters level (sorc/wiz level)

master class level
1-2: alertness, improved evasion, share spells, emphatic link (this also allows the master to teleport to places their familiar has seen)

3-4: deliver touch spells

5-6: speak with master

7-8: speak with animals of its kind

9-10: nothing

11-12: spell resistance

13-14: scry on familiar

15-20: nothing

pg 53 of the PBH

[Moltrazahn]

Back from playing my druid I was informed of the following.


Wildshape: Animals can "talk" speak the animal-language. This does (depending on DM) sometimes mean you can talk to all other animals, and sometimes just your own species.

Plant Wildshape: Treent can speak ent and fey. not common. However ent is not a language one can get without DM help. Depending on background/rp, this can be aquired from the staff. The Shambling Mound cant speak anything, as its basicly a intelligent carnivorous plant.

Elemental form: Elementals can speak their Elemental language if known to the caster (Ignan, Aquan, Earthen, windyblowblowy).

Magical beast wild shape: This is more varied... depending on the chosen form. So lets go through them as they are.
- CELESTIAL LEOPARD: Purr like a kitten, can speak Animal, but nothing else.
- WINTER WOLF: Can talk common!
- PHASE SPIDER: If this could talk, there would only be drow druids. No talking! at all, aside from nightmare endusing noices

Dragon Shape: They can all talk common, and any language the caster knew before shifting.

The way it was explained to me, is that where you keep your mental capacities while shifted, all of your psysical change. Thus, it depends on the shape you shift into if they are able to produce the noices made by the human throat. One could ague that a Winder wolf would then be able to speak other languages then just common, since its known to the caster, but I was told it used magic to talk common, and it was not a psysical trait of the wolf per say. And ofcause we know dragons are just overpowered

[Syracuse]

Worgs can speak common, but they're evil, intelligent wolves. They should, by all accounts,

There's a catch.

Druids have "awakening" spell. The spell when cast upon animals, increases animal's hd, int/wis (to human-like values). It also grants them ability to speak... and turns them into magical beast.

Not to be a drag, but I don't see how that's a catch. I wasn't discussing a spell infused wolf, nor really talking about 'talking animal druids' - which I'll agree shouldn't be allowed. The point being that a creature exclusive to the setting with intellect that 'shouldn't be able to speak common' can, was all. Not animals. The pointing to the Worg is to establish that this is a creature that, by all accounts, shouldn't have the capacity for speech with humans or 'complicated' vocal patterns that can pass along information much more than an animal should.

[Ariella]

Depends on the familiar, The raven can speak in PnP although we do not have it here. To the topic of wildshape it is completely limited to the form you have taken.

A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)

This means you can communicate in dragon, winter wolf and the Treant forms. Elemental's cannot speak common at least as far as DnD has so far stated, That said they do have a low intelligence meaning it could be a lack of understanding more then inability.

[Syracuse]

This means you can communicate in dragon, winter wolf and the Treant forms. Elemental's cannot speak common at least as far as DnD has so far stated, That said they do have a low intelligence meaning it could be a lack of understanding more then inability.

Pretty much this. Also, those elemental languages act like completely normal languages. They're just associated with a plane.

http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Langua ... eat_Beyond

Here, you can see some brief descriptions of individual elemental languages.