Thaumaturge - strangely high requirements

[NegInfinity]

I think that thaumaturge class have strangely high requirements.

Two feats and 10 points in two skills (one of which is not a wizard/sorcerer skill) doesn't make much sense.

For example, assassin requires 8 points in two skills. Arcane scholar requires 3 feats.

In PnP something like demonologist requires 3 feats and 4/8 points in focus.

Since thaumaturge is homebrewed anyway, i think it would make sense to cut diplomacy requirements in half.

[Rasael]

Thaumaturge isn't homebrewed.

You can find it in the Dungeon Master's Guide v 3.5 at page 196.
Or online for convenience's sake: https://dndtools.net/classes/thaumaturgist/.

[Planehopper]

Hey Rasael.. can you confirm if the cohort will be moved back into the companion slot? Eventually.

[Rasael]

Hey Rasael.. can you confirm if the cohort will be moved back into the companion slot? Eventually.

It is what I want to do. Right now its being examined in the QC-group.

[NegInfinity]

Thaumaturge isn't homebrewed.

You can find it in the Dungeon Master's Guide v 3.5 at page 196.
Or online for convenience's sake: https://dndtools.net/classes/thaumaturgist/.

Well, alright, you got me.

Requirements, however are homebrewed.

Originally thaumaturgist required:
Spell Focus (conjuration)
Ability to cast Planar Ally.

No diplomacy skill required.

The reason why I posted is because I tried to build hipsing AT thaumaturge, and it is absolutely impossible. Which is weird, because something like this feels like it should be possible to do. I looked at the class, and noticed diplomacy requirement, which seems to be very arbitrary and out of place. The source book pretty much confirms it - the class originally didn't have diplomacy requirement.

[ragnarok1983]

Well, it also stipulates that almost all Thaums are/were clerics... with only very few that are cleric/wiz or cleric/sorc... Because it requires the spell "lesser planar ally." (Making request from a deity... )

So...

-Arcane thaums should require dm approval?
-Arcane and divine thaums must RP their extra-planar agreements?

/devil's advocate here.

[Rasael]

I believe the reasoning was that the Planar Ally spells require a diplomacy check against an outsider. To bind them into your service.

Ragnarok is correct about that.

[NegInfinity]

Well, it also stipulates that almost all Thaums are/were clerics... with only very few that are cleric/wiz or cleric/sorc... Because it requires the spell "lesser planar ally." (Making request from a deity... )

Well, wizard method of acquiring "allies" via planar binding is outlined here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planar ... Lesser.htm

And it doesn't require diplomacy.

--------

I just don't really like the fact that the class wants me to be bloodmage/asoc instead of significantly weaker arcane trickster.

[ragnarok1983]

It's not the requirement of the class that is the issue, it's the implied requirements of the spell "Lesser Planar All" and making a deal with the creature. Those aren't explicitly stayed in the class description [or spell].

You are convincing an angel (etc.) to be a LONG TERM ally after successfully negotiating a deal with them. The act of summoning them is just the first step.

Thaum "sample text" from dmg3.5

[NegInfinity]

You are convincing an angel

Who said I would be convincing an angel? ^_^

Either way:

I just don't really like the fact that the class wants me to be bloodmage/asoc instead of significantly weaker arcane trickster.

[ragnarok1983]

You are convincing an angel

Who said I would be convincing an angel? ^_^

" ... (etc.)"

*wink*

[ragnarok1983]

And what the class really wants you to be is a cleric with a super-duper secret handshake with the god, _______. And the god ____ will totes send you a beefcake angel/devil/demon/celestial bartender, etc. to do his/your will. In exceedingly rare cases, it will allow some arcanist and master orator/negotiator to offer several kilos of an illicit substance/magical doodad/"personal" services to the outsider that makes the outsider go "Ya know what, I'm in. Let's do this!" *Outsider wipes powdery substance from nose*

The class doesn't actually want you to be an ASOC, an AT, BM, EK, Assassin, FB, SD., etc. Just a dude with a good "handshake" and/or totally besties with a god.

[Planehopper]

Hey Rasael.. can you confirm if the cohort will be moved back into the companion slot? Eventually.

It is what I want to do. Right now its being examined in the QC-group.

Having been on QC, I know these things take time.. but any indication or movement in this discussion?

I'd like to RCR at 100% if I need to.

Thanks!

[Blackman D]

it was at a bit of a stand still but its been bumped

[Calen]

The requirements and conjuration spell focus benefit a cleric somewhat (acid rain) but they do not have greater planar binding.
Wizards have greater planar binding and more feats, but conjuration isn't the best pick.

As for the summon going back to animal companion slot.
I honestly don't understand the reason why it has been changed in the first place.
They have always been in the animal companion slot, they just lacked scaling and naming.

The patch idea came over as fix one thing break another.


Thaumaturge had 3 problems pre patch:


1: Planar cohorts weren't scaling, your permanent level 4 fire mephit with 24 HP was useless.
At best you had an elemental which was very weak, even fully buffed.
Clerics had complete trash as well.

2: Augmented summoning didn't do anything for planars.

3: You couldn't name your planar, which devalues the identity.


After patch:

1: Planar cohorts now scale but take a summon slot.
With extended summoning the planar cohort feat is useless.
Besides summon spells are different than planar binding.

2: Augmented summoning doesn't work for planars.

3: You can't name your planar, which devalues the identity.

4: Thaumaturge sucks for clerics, the class it was meant to be for.



Solution:

1: Change planar cohort to ,cast greater planar binding.
Make it function like an animal companion.
Since it is a long term relationship you are bound to one companion.

You now have a permanent companion with name and all, which works well for both wizards and clerics.
If you for some reason need to swap it IC wise a DM can help.

If this requires too much work just change it to cast greater planar binding.
Treat it like an animal companion.
Ignore the naming/option to pick just one.

2: Augmented summoning now works for planar cohort.

3: Make greater planar binding 1 round a level, just like summon greater undead for wizards.


Last but not least, let's address the elephant in the room.
The only reason planar cohorts aren't animal companions is because of the horned devil.
It's beyond overpowered, it outshines palemasters vampire/druid animal companion until dragon pet etc.

Running around with that and a epic gate minion as wizard is just silly.
It reaches druid imbalance, and this shouldn't be there.
The other planars are more balanced and there won't be a problem with them.


The only defense I have for the horned devil is that just like a palemaster if you get caught chances are you die permanently.
It is hard to justify 'I made a contract with this devil, it's fine'.


I hope this will just get fixed, and not left like this.
It isn't working well at the moment which is a shame.
I've a hard time following the thought process behind the Thaumaturge class.


Anyway let's make Thaumaturges great again .