On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

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Steve
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On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by Steve »

Hello,
After having been in a recent Event populated by many PCs/Players, I noticed more than once, instances of Projection, in emoting reactions of a PC to something said/done by another PC.

Thought Projection is when you ICly emote what the Player Character is thinking. It is often used negatively in various ways, such as to insult another PC, or worse, to hurt someone OOCly, both done on purpose. Through emotes, a Player can express their PC's thoughts "out loud" about a certain situations however, not a personal, internal thought about the character that is being interacted with...which usually are thoughts that the other PC can never react to, as no Character can obtain mind-reading.

For sake of not "calling out" any one Player, I will simply put here a few examples, on what Projection looks like, and doubly posted showing the removal of the projections:

*she eyes the man, to hear what strange things he will say this time*
*she eyes the man, to hear what strange things he will say this time*

*Her lips twitch only briefly for mention of loss of life on royal soil. Irony at it's finest.*
*Her lips twitch only briefly for mention of loss of life on royal soil. Irony at it's finest.*

*He looks the ridiculously dressed man up and down, determining he must be from the circus. His face shows disdain, as thoughts of a negative experience with clowns as a youth, holds him back from offering any initial greeting to the man.*
*He looks the ridiculously dressed man up and down, determining he must be from the circus appearing to try and determine where this man is from. His face shows disdain, as thoughts of a negative experience with clowns as a youth, , as he holds back from offering any initial greeting to the man.*

A cleaned up example:
Imagine that, in role-play, you see—

Archie looks about and he doesn’t like the look of the wolf so backs away slowly, as if a little nervous. “Uhm… I… I think you should go and bother… someone else… maybe?” Attempting a small smile but having his hand on his sword, ready to draw.

What’s wrong with it..? It makes perfect sense; yes… it’s a textual and descriptive play, but the problem is… it contains Out of Character (OOC) information and role play does not require OOC information in a play… consider this:

Archie looks about and he doesn’t like the look of the lycan so backs away slowly, as if a little nervous. “Uhm… I… I think you should go and bother… someone else… maybe?” Attempting a small smile but having his hand on his sword, ready to draw.

This is the same play but with all projected (OOC) material struck out.
I cannot tell you the number of times I see 'thought projection' used to negatively describe another PC or situation. That is not cool. And, it does not provide a viable means for the Other to respond, which is a form of god-modding that could lead to metagaming (even if you, as a Player, think the other has the ability to respond to your PC's thoughts).

Below is a longer read on more Internet sourced information...I highly suggest you read it:
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:Projection:

Welcome one and all to yet another one of Toxian City's classes.

This week we're going to focus on Projection; what it is, why we shouldn't be doing it, and how to correct this mistake in role play. Projection, along with Metagaming and God-moding, is one of the most problematic issues that arises in role play - but out of the three it's typically the easiest to correct. Hopefully by the end of today's class we'll have given each of you a stronger view of what Projection is and how to get around it.

So, let's start by clearly defining what Projection is. In role play terms, Projection, or Projecting, is when one role player imposes their thoughts, informs of their previous actions, or otherwise passes along information in a manner that the second role player is unable to respond to. For example: 'Jaco Guisse looks across the bar at the other male, thinking of how much he hated the man'. Since you cannot read my thoughts, it is technically impossible for the other role player to pick up on what I'm thinking about, based purely off of what I posted, and reply back.

Why is this a bad thing? There are many reasons as to why Projection should be avoided. First and foremost, Projection can often lead to unnecessary drama. By 'thinking' about how much you hate someone else, or otherwise expressing ill-will towards another character in a non-verbal, non-physical manner you can upset the other role player OOCly, leading to bad blood between the two of you. However, not all Projection leads to drama. Often times it leads to miscommunication. One role player may project their thoughts about a previous encounter with another role player, which a third party could misinterpret as something verbal - meaning that private thoughts are now being passed around like wild fire. Lastly, it kills role play when one player projects something and leaves the other role player unable to respond. Always leave your role play partners with something to reply to.

Like I mentioned, there are a handful of instances where Projection commonly, and often unintentionally, pops up. These situations may be when you are describing another character in a scene in a non-verbal manner, when you're trying to describe a scene in a post to help other role players catch up - but you are giving away information that the newcomer couldn't possibly come to know, or when you're trying to find a way to express your characters emotions. Now, these are not the only instances where unintentional Projection may arise, but they are the most common ones.

There are some instances where you may accidentally Project when you are encountering, or describing, another role player. By saying, 'Jaco Guisse spies the vampiress that, just the other day, he had fought tooth and nail in an alley way until he managed to escape her clutches,' you are giving away information to all of the role players around you that is of no use to them. You aren't saying it, you aren't writing it down and passing it as a note, your character is just taking a stroll down memory lane - and stifling the role play of those around you.

Instead, you could get the same message across, but help encourage role play, by saying: Jaco Guisse spots the vampiress as she arrives, leaning across the table to whisper to his companion, "There she is! She's the one that chased me down that alley the other night.. barely got away, had to fight for my life." In this manner you are getting the same point across, but now others know what is going on, In-Character, and can respond as they have heard you explain the situation.

When you are trying to help new people entering a scene it isn't uncommon to try and post - setting the stage. But understand that you should only describe things that they would be able to immediately recognize with their five senses. An incorrect example would be: Jaco Guisse's eyes dart between his captive and his newly arrived friend. Chewing at his lip, the alley way smelled of blood and filth, the door to his right ajar - the room beyond where he had been captured and beaten. Beyond that, and up the flight of stairs: his captors lair.

While yes, it's great that you're trying to help the newcomer understand what is going on - and to an extent what has happened, the other character can't possibly know what lies beyond the door, let alone upstairs. Instead of Projecting this information, have your character explain the information in some manner that the other character will be able to comprehend what's going on. Describing the immediate area is great, and encouraged. But for all of the other information you should either speak, or wait until you are able to physically show these other areas to your role play partner.

Describing emotions and thoughts are, arguably, the most common thing role players accidentally Project. When a character hates another character, many of us immediately begin describing our hateful thoughts toward them. However the other role player cannot react to thoughts, so either you will be ignored, or OOC problems may arise from this simple mistake. Remember, our characters can only catch things they hear, see, smell, taste, or feel. Therefore you should emote things that invoke these senses.

Miss Wright: I would like to add something here. It isnt just emoting hateful things, I think thats where people get confused a lot, its emoting any emotion, you can dart your eyes, curl in a ball rock back and forth, to give the impression your scared, but saying /me looks to the girl and suddenly becomes afraid is absolutely NOT correct. we are not narrating a story, we are role playing. People tend to give backstories as well, thats also narrating a story and not role playing. I am poking in because I want to say it absolutely frankly what this means since it is such a widespread problem

Instead of thinking of how you hate someone, have your character verbally say it. Essentially, you're just going to put quotation marks (""'s) around your thoughts, thus turning them into spoken words. If you don't want to say it, then perhaps you glare instead of look, maybe your fists are clenched and shaking, maybe your character's complexion is turning red as the hate builds. You may go as far as to role play attacking, with a punch, slap, or kick, the other character. All of these are able to be responded to. You can hear the words, see the anger taking hold of the other character, or feel you as you make contact with them. These can all be responded to very easily. The same can go with any other emotion. If you're feeling amorous, perhaps your grinning like a fool and blushing. Is that a banana in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me? If you're sad you're most likely sobbing or wailing. Etcetera.

Understand that most people who are Projecting are doing so completely by accident. Many newer role players in SL don't understand what Projecting is, and that's why we have classes like this. To try and spread advice and help make the role play in Toxian City better with each coming week. But even the Shelter can't catch everyone - players will slip through the cracks. When that occurs, all it takes is a friendly IM welcoming them to Toxian City, an ice breaker like, 'so, how long have you been role playing?', and then politely pointing out that they're projecting and that it's making it difficult to respond. Before you know it, you'll have helped better the sim and it's role play!
Last edited by Steve on Mon May 16, 2016 10:59 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by Deathgrowl »

I am an inferior RPer who will continue to use "though projection" whenever I consider it appropriate, as according to my own opinion.
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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by The Whistler »

Deathgrowl wrote:I am an inferior RPer who will continue to use "though projection" whenever I consider it appropriate, as according to my own opinion.
I, too, enjoy being contrarian. :ugeek:
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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by Steve »

Hey,
I'm trying to help Players out here. Giving example of "better practice."

What is a Community for, if not to openly share information, in the attempt to better the experience, in this case, role-play?

*sighs*

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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by TarnishedSoul »

Why would you strike through "having his hand on his sword, ready to draw?" That's a rather obvious visual cue.

The original example was fine aside from some grammatical issues. One could add "...in a manner that suggests he doesn't like the look..." for a more visual cue, but I think common sense should apply here.

"Thought projection," to me, is when someone emotes *thinks that [name] is an idiot* - there is no viable counter to that type of emote. The example you provided is not a game-breaking one.
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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by taylorstar »

To be fair sometimes its easier to express doesn't like especially when that's the key focus on what your emoting about, it saves you time and energy and that of the other players if your condensing stuff down.

I could thoroughly express how one of my characters doesn't like the wine he is drinking by going into detail about his facial expression the sound he makes his body language etc filling up a paragraph quite easily, or I could use its clear he doesn't like the wine and then I have more room and emphasis on the following part of the emote like how he cunningly disposes of the wine when he thinks no one is looking.

As for the OOC part of emotes, again not naming names but I have seen a few players cleverly place OOC information in their emotes as jokes or emphasis/comparison on their previous action making their emote not only more rounded but hilarious as a player sitting behind the screen bringing the game closer to how my tabletop PnP games used to be like.

Im not going to say that people should start using OOC styled emotes to describe their IC actions such as "my character Rambo's through the enemy" which amongst friends in a well placed time would be comical etc, but I don't think the RP is bad that it required a post suggesting improvments.

It might sound odd but I actually RP my characters differently in OOC standards as well, some characters have auto animation on, coloured text and even the way I abbreviate some words just because it further helps me distinguish my character not just to other players but to me also.

That said its not a bad idea offering up ways and examples on people to further flesh out their characters their ideas, ways to freshen up how they express themselves and perhaps even inspire them with different characters.

[edit]

TarnishedSoul got in before me in pointing out emoting what a person is thinking as the most obvious form of thought projection.

thinking someone is an idiot has a minimal amount of visual queues if any depending on the character as oppose to someone looking at said character as if they was an idiot, has slightly more merit to it, it can be perceived as a condescending glance and more so what type of glance.

Also agreeing with Tarnished on about being ready to draw, that implies multiple visual queues, a tight grip, twitching fingers, veins sticking out on the characters arm, a stance or tension, it offers up the opportunity for all kinds of body language to be interpreted from a small emote, rather than forcing a player to word it all out which could take time and be made all kinds of awkward and clumsy.

The example of the vampires in the quote you use is one I think that's a poor example, it mentions the thought projection that I have an issue with but offers poor solution, instead of having it say how he "escaped from them the other day having fought tooth and nail" it could of said "spied with familiarity and fear" it implies he recognises those vampires and that he is scared it offers so much more than the post suggested.
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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by Selande »

Steve puts a lot of research into the things he dislikes.

I respect that. :geek:




I'm still going to project. Some large percentage of communication is body language that I don't have time to properly dictate or even look up for argumentative purposes. Projection helps.
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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by Planehopper »

Sorry, Steve. Going to project when it is more expedient to do so.

The vast amount of body language lost in a text based passage, it makes a hell of a lot more sense for me to do it that way. Imagine the amount of text that would fill up your chat box if everyone only relied on specific body language descriptions to get their feelings across.

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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by Kayan »

Projecting is a forgivable RP tool that expedites interaction in an imperfect medium. It is so much easier and more effectively conveys information to RP:
He backs away, apparently worried and afraid of the stranger, and places his hand on his sword preparing to draw.
Than it is to figure out descriptors that can convey every bit of information that such a simple sentence can more easily pass along. Even in real D&D sessions, while you could work really hard to act and pretend to be afraid while RPing, I would never consider forcing this kind of interaction upon players who don't want to undertake it when they could just as well say the above.
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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by Hoihe »

Also, simply describing body language is bound to cause some OOC misunderstandings that shouldn't be present ICly.


Be it due to cultural differences or just sheer personalities. By making the method and intent clear, you allow the other player to properly read and react. Now, if their character is supposed to misunderstand that, the player should still have an understanding of what is happening.
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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by Tsidkenu »

Even in the first clause, "Archie looks about and doesn't like the look of the lycan so backs away," there is more than ample contextual factors in that single sentence for it not even really qualify as a thought projection.

Upon reading that line my mind's eye perceives a fellow looking about (co-incidentally Archie from the comic of the same name comes immediately into my mental view), and the expression of his face drops in abhorrence of what he sees, and he begins to make a discreet retreat.

Contextual usage is the primary determiner of meaning, not just in the small scale (where a word or phrase sits in a sentence) but also in the bigger picture of a conversation or even prior relationship with another individual that others may or may not be aware of.

Compare these two emotes
  • The knight clearly does not like you.

    The look on the knight's face makes it clear he doesn't like you.
The first borders on 'thought projection', and the second is clear from other non-verbal cues embedded into the text and giving more context to meaning. However, even the first line would fall into this category if the preceeding conversation (which you may have missed because you just came upon the scene) went as follows:
  • Knight: Upon perceiving the hooded stranger make his way down the road, the knight stopped in his tracks.

    Outlander: The hooded figure also stops.

    Knight: The knight turns his steely gaze at the hooded figure, staring menacingly, before his voice booms out, "Surrender, outlander, by order of Count Gorgonzola, whose lands you trespass!"

    Knight: The knight clearly does not like you.
Additional context not supplied was that the outlander and the knight began the above RP already at a variance (the knight being on orders to remove the trespasser from his Lord's land).

Context, folks! There will be a time when a 'thought emote', when ably accompanied by other descriptive factors, will have good literary impact. Its the responsibility of the author to write accordingly, I believe, hence why there is no hard-and-fast rule of thumb to such things.
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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by Dagesh »

I think I wrote an incoherent thread on this a year or two ago. I agree with OP. I tolerate a certain amount of projection because, as some have stated, they gun do whut they gun do (or something like that) and it's tolerable. The excuse is often "Well I'm writing a fairy tale about grand adventures and you're a part of my 'Truman Show' so you have to see my thingys." Fine. Tolerated.

What drives me absolutely bonkers is the information on such a scale that no level of eyebrow movement, labial structure, or even chronic sinusitis could reveal. For example, *He sees the orc approach and thinks to himself that his underwear would hardly fit on the orc's bicep*. You might think this is silly but I have seen this level of emote. It's the worst. Don't do it. It makes the game not fun when you do this.

Can we at least keep emotes to something that could be expressed non-verbally? Please?
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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by Kayan »

Dagesh wrote:labial structure
:lol: :lol: :lol: I don't think that means what you think it means.

You do make a good point, though, that Tsidkenu also illustrates well: there's certainly a reasonable limit here, and context clues are helpful so that players aren't simply emoting *He thinks about possibly ending the stranger's life* or other similarly silly things that are not exactly reasonably expressible.

I think a good general rule could be that if what you're projecting could be reasonably described or conveyed through context, mannerisms, and emotional cues in a real life situation, then it's probably alright to do so through simplification. IE: Good judgment should prevail.
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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

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Re: On Avoiding 'Thought Projection' in RP Emotes

Unread post by Steve »

The OP was written in haste. As was pointed out, it did not contain the clearest example, which I have attempted to clear up, with additions.

This issue IS important to me, as a Player, because it is often employed for one Toon to sarcastically/negatively/disparagingly address another, in a way that would become meta-gaming, to react to. Yes, meta-gaming—a PC cannot read the thoughts of another PC, and unless a thought is verbalized, directly expressed...the action of Thought Projection can become more of an OOC commentary on the RP, than an actual interaction.

If Thought Projection is considered a Tool, by most, in order to expedite interaction, then by all means, we should tolerate it. But considering HOW I witness it most often used, in order to antagonize, that aspect should really be revisited, in all our IC RP communication.

If your Toon does want to antagonize, then seriously, be verbal or obvious to the "senses" of the Other. That will place the emoting into a context in which the expression belongs specifically to the PC, and not be possibly confused to be belonging to the Player (which could lead to some OOC problems...which we all want to avoid, right?!?).

Thank you.

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