Can we revert back to the old Bigby Spells?

[Bad Omens]

Personally, I find the bigby spell change pretty obnoxious from a PvM point of view. The fact that it is able to be attacked by the monster makes it almost obsolete in the EPIC areas, where the spell is most necessary. After a creature has been dealt with, the fact that the hand remains is cumbersome and can become bugging, attacking other non-hostile players but not other monsters, whom become alerted to your presence if you are invisible because the hand can not be unsummoned. In short, I think the fix is worse than the problem which leads me to my next point....

The reason why it was changed was PvP. That is never a good reason to change anything. If someone is abusing Bigbys, then the DM team should take action on an individual basis but I don't think that many players are abusing it in PvP. That is, if it is abuse in PvP. Let's face it, if your Fighter Weapon Master Frenzied Berserker messes with an Epic Mage, yeah, you should technically be out of luck in a lore based setting. Mages should have the biggest KILL BUTTON, so I don't see why it's viewed as obscene for casters to own others in PvP, for whatever the reason.

Anyone else disagree, I am open to other perspectives but as of right now, I just don't think the Bigby change is a positive influence upon the server setting, mechanically, or otherwise...

[Moltrazahn]

Was it not changed so it was old-school vs monsters and a psysical character in pvp (ergo could be attacked)? I seem to recall someone say that it worked like in vanilla at least vs. Npcs.

[mrm3ntalist]

I seem to recall someone say that it worked like in vanilla at least vs. Npcs.

Npcs use the old version of bigby spells because it had issues - abnormal behavior such as the hand turning on the caster, other mobs attacking the hand etc.

[Flasmix]

It's rather sad how this spell is near useless now.

[arakes99]

Sounds to me like the hand should have commands and unsummon actions added to make it more useful. No reason it shouldn't continue to aid the caster past one creature or until they no longer wish it to be around that I can think of.

I don't think anyone on the server should have a "Kill" button other than the DM's. They are abused, have been abused and will continue to be abused and DM's are not our parents to solve every petty squabble.

Working on the current complaints to make the spell more useful as is makes sense. Going back to the previous, unfixable system that so many people hate and only helps a few is not a good solution and has no lasting benefit. Last time this fix was implemented, that's exactly what happened when people complained and here we are again.

[Darkcloud777]

The new bigbys are pathically weak

[metaquad4]

I'm playing a mage character right now, and I can safely say the new bigbys is not weak. Its actually fairly strong (where before it was just broken). Though, the transition from OP to strong might feel like its obscenely weak, that is a perception issue. It can still halt people in their tracks, just this time, people can kill it (I.E. they have a chance).

There is one beef I have with it, though. I was disappointing the new bigbys wouldn't choose new targets after its target died. It just followed me around, doing nothing. A good idea for it, would be to make it choose a new target, for as long as it "lives". That would make it far more viable for targets in PvE, where they die quickly under fire but still need interrupting.

Also, I wonder if it would be possible to give it something like 99 AB, no damage, and make the bigby grasp an "on hit" ability (give it multiple attacks, to compensate for the "1s" it might roll). Its AI sometimes does attack, instead of "grasping". Though, it usually ends up grasping at some point during the round, this is a nice thought.

[Flasmix]

I'm really surprised anybody finds it to be 'strong'. With all the bugs it has, being that;
1) After the initial casting, it may take multiple rounds for another attempt to flag.
2) Even with the initial target alive, it may move to attack fellow party members or different hostiles.
3) After all hostiles are dead, there's no way to control it and while it may charge at hostile targets it does nothing aside absorb a few hits due to NPC AI. This is when it's not attacking party members.

With all of these taken into account, it makes it near useless in the eyes of many.

[V'rass]

The new version is pathetically weak... It is going on my worthless/don't-use spell list along with 90% of all the other spells.

[Bad Omens]

Thank you for your continued input.

More thoughts:

1.) It is not weak in most areas, but it is near useless in EPIC areas. Kind of a sliding scale depending upon CR of area.

2.) It is not meant to attack other creatures, just the creature you originally designate and should dissipate once that creature is terminated in my estimate. A single spell shouldn't act as a summon, it is evocative magic, not conjuring.

[Flasmix]

2.) It is not meant to attack other creatures, just the creature you originally designate and should dissipate once that creature is terminated in my estimate. A single spell shouldn't act as a summon, it is evocative magic, not conjuring.

I disagree. As per the final line of the description of Interposing Hand from the D20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/interposingHand.htm)

Directing the spell to a new target is a move action.

Thus, it should be able to be used on multiple targets as all higher level Bigby Spells read 'As Interposing Hand, but...'

[arakes99]

I think giving it the control a person has over a standard summon is a good idea and I don't play mages. I see no problem with having the hands useful for their duration or giving the mage control over a magical creation of theirs, especially if it helps over come some bugs. And based on the information Flasmix found this would be lore appropriate.

Also, if the hands are dying too easily then perhaps they need to be buffed up a bit? They should be killable, but not laughably so.

This spell line used to be utterly OP, so now that its been brought more in line with PnP and its a more reasonable spell why not give it some additional uses and flavor it used to lack? If it could be redirected or called back to the caster with a command it would have a lot of utility it never used to have.

[Legofsalmon]

After picking the interposing spell on a sorcerer I now barely use it cause it feels slightly clunky, the fact it randomly attacks party members (deals no damage mind) is really distracting. I'm pretty sure in pnp you can keep it around as long as you can concentrate on it.

Shifting it's power from being an uber I win button or a panic button on one target to being a reliable CC for several monsters seems like a fair tradeoff, but could use a few tweaks to make it more user friendly. Perhaps if it was a bit tougher and easier to control, even direct control like a familiar would be pretty good (no idea if this is possible without issues, though don't let it cast spells that would be op) since it's meant to be an extenson of their own will..

I'm strongly in favor of allowing spellcasters more options to deal with enemies/hostile situations than hurling Issacs or other damaging spells which 90% of the spells all spellcasters use the same of. Though a few of the new spell additions are great (if a little buggy)

[Mac]

Just my 2-cents but!

...Please never go back to the old Bigby Spells. When it came to PvP they were terribly over powered.

[arakes99]

Actually I'd like to take that a bit further and say please give the monsters the new version as well. Had to stand there and watch my character die for two minutes because of a Bigsby's crushing hand last night. Was in a large group at the time and no one could do a thing to help because of the old version.