Reducing the cap of spells to +4

[MopKnight]

Certainly nerfing is not the best way unless it's for something very specific, which this isn't.

Nerfing is almost always the best way to go about balancing outliers. It is required in order to avoid power creep. It just annoys players who are used to being overpowered.

Generally you nerf outliers hard before you buff. For some reason it seems to be the other way around here, except in strangely specific circumstances - the general attempt to nerf Bless Weapon because it ended up on wands, for example.

[Maximvs]

Players always want more power, but proper balance is usually achieved by nerfing some stuff. It's best to have it all sorted out before the server is up and tell the players they don't have modern day rights and insurances.

It's too late.

[Nyeleni]

Yeah, right, because sorting it all out is so easy. Hindsight is 20/20. With all the possible class combinations and spells and feats it is impossible to have a truely balanced playing field.

Still I think casters do have a great advantage over the rest. And the majority of the spells here discussed don't last a short time either. Unless you only dipped a bit into the casting class.

[Hoihe]

Then here's another perspective for you:

UMD rogues.

You nerf these spells, you nerf UMD rogues.

UMD rogues are already as squishy as it gets and don't tell me to party up as there are times when there's nobody to party up with to take beatings.

[Passiflora]

Then here's another perspective for you:

UMD rogues.

You nerf these spells, you nerf UMD rogues.

UMD rogues are already as squishy as it gets and don't tell me to party up as there are times when there's nobody to party up with to take beatings.

Man. UMD doesn't go to 20 caster lvl, they never get +5 on those GMW and stuff. :p

[Hoihe]

They still use and depend on IMA wands.

[Maximvs]

Nwn and Dnd in general offers a decent balance, at least, between people of roughly the same class type. Once you go outside the fighter vs fighter type, or wizard vs wizard type, it sure gets wack.

You can adjust certain things, but achieving perfect balance would only make the game look like a MMORPG anyways.

[Blame The Rogue]

the entire server, areas, mobs, loot system, items, and coming crafting system, are all balanced/set up for caster max eb 5/ac 5/stat 4, item max eb 4/ac 4/stat 3

casters are balanced by no rest zones and by the rest timer

casters are as they should be. squishy, to powerful, to squishy. non-casters never reach the heights of a caster, but never reach the lows of a caster either

my opinion is no on nerfing wards towards those listed above

i don't currently play any casters. i play a non-caster. still prefer maxes as is

[Aspect of Sorrow]

If there would be such a synergy between casters and warriors, it would be great. But usually the casters are tanks themselves or have some way to make a warrior obsolete. Yes, fighters usually need the casters, but not the other way around.

I play primarily Wizards and one of their biggest advantages is naturally the variety of spells to obtain, and still continue to obtain. Adaptability comes easy, even at level 22, and only +5 in AC bonuses on items. I can't say the same for the other Arcane based classes which have inevitable need of consumables, sometimes at great cost.

[Thorsson]

the entire server, areas, mobs, loot system, items, and coming crafting system, are all balanced/set up for caster max eb 5/ac 5/stat 4, item max eb 4/ac 4/stat 3

Not really. A lot of things have changed and there's been very little re-balancing.

[Thorsson]

Nerfing is almost always the best way to go about balancing outliers.

Who was talking about outliers? What was being talked about was every spell that affects AB & AC for every caster.

[Flasmix]

If these spells were nerfed, eventually, people will just stop using them entirely. The spells would lose all purpose once you have your own +4 weapon and +4 Armor.

I'm really tired of seeing 'fixes' come in the form of nerfing spells instead of boosting the other factors. It's like, instead of raising the weakest class you lower every class down to be on equal footing with the weak one.

The fact that you want to put a change in that would make sure spells do not get used at later levels is just... bad. Might as well say "Hey, want to put in these Bigby's changes so they never get used anymore?"

[Maximvs]

I'm really tired of seeing 'fixes' come in the form of nerfing spells instead of boosting the other factors. It's like, instead of raising the weakest class you lower every class down to be on equal footing with the weak one.

Yeah, well, going that route sends the pvp of the server in a very special direction... the one shot contest. I suppose people that can hips find that one shot "fun".

[Nyeleni]

If these spells were nerfed, eventually, people will just stop using them entirely. The spells would lose all purpose once you have your own +4 weapon and +4 Armor.

I'm really tired of seeing 'fixes' come in the form of nerfing spells instead of boosting the other factors. It's like, instead of raising the weakest class you lower every class down to be on equal footing with the weak one.

The fact that you want to put a change in that would make sure spells do not get used at later levels is just... bad. Might as well say "Hey, want to put in these Bigby's changes so they never get used anymore?"

That might be true to some extent. But the spells wouldn't be obsolete. They just wouldn't be used so often.

And you forget you can use the slot needed for that +4 item for something else, while you have the spell active.

Besides getting +4 items isn't easy at all. Even with epic shops, who will be introduced slowly (we have two at the moment Id say, and those items aren't exactly good for everybody either).

[Grimcheese]

I imagine a flavoured soul 1-30 is a breeze. A pure wizard or sorcerer? Not so much. But then there are a myriad of ways to multiclass those characters.

With the right deity, FvS is pretty easy to level, with or without a few hand-me downs. I chumped content on my FvS that I would never dare do with my other characters at equivalent footing.


I think it's an interesting experiment to give a lower cap to spells, though I guess I'm in the minority here. A lot of people who say "mages are weak if you nerf these!" don't seem to have gishes in mind, and last time I checked with my own mage, my survival relied more on Mirror Image/Displacement/other party members turning aside blows than a significant AC score. If you build as a stereotypical mage you are going to run into issues, but if you're a sword-and-board only using your magic to buff yourself to demigod levels, your lack of magical staying power isn't going to be an issue.

Sure, there are classes that can do high, if not higher, consistent damage than mages, but at least they have drawbacks. Rogues? They need to ensure their target is flat-footed or otherwise eligible for Sneak Attack, they need Epic Precision or be left with a thumb up their nose at mobs immune to sneak attacks, and on the defensive end they are fragile. Builds that can do 700-1000+ damage per round? They are usually fighter-based builds and tend to lack the options to withdraw from a situation that's gotten bad for them. A mage can go invisible, teleport, or summon a giant critter to draw attention for the few crucial rounds needed to retreat. A fighter or rogue caught with his pants down doesn't have as many options unless he has UMD, certain special abilities, and/or is willing to throw money into the furnace.

Finally, not everyone is in possession of a +4 item or a +3 stat item, let alone those items in the slots you wanted, let alone the multiple ones needed to effectively emulate a fully buffed mage. I'd say caster buffs will still have a place even if you downgrade them to the level of gear.