Poll about reverting to the old bigby spells.

[Moltrazahn]

Hello playerbase.

So, Let me start by posting this.


And then this...


And most of you will guess what this is about.
Having now tried the new varriant of the hated/beloved Bigby spells, I must profess that I find them rather weird in their new format. Now, this is nothing to do with power, even tho most will know Bigby spells as a mage WIN-button.

I will put up some pros and cons for the new and old version.

New version:
* Pro: More in line with PNP version of Bigby spells, summoning an actual hand.
* Pro: Gives the targets without SR or saves a chance to actually do something to get out.
* Neg: The summon don't go away after the target is dead, and will follow you, nor engages on its own when a new target is present.
* Neg: Don't seem to reapply (attempt to reapply) its intended mechanics.
* Neg: Does not prevent the same caster from using other/more Bigby spells on the same target.
* Neg: You can end up with a lagtastic amount of NPC-hands following you around trying to Highfive or slap your rear.

Old version:
* Pro: Informs the caster constantly if its function (Grapple/Stun/Hold/knockdown etc) fails or passes to do its intended effect.
* Pro: Does not summon an ungodly amount of flying hands.
* Pro: Does not permit more than 1 Bigby variant spell per target at a time.
* Neg: To those without high enough SR or Saves, the Bigby spell can for many be a instant failure/loss when it hits you.
* Neg: NPC or other players being hit by a Bigby may find themselves instantly giving up and with a sour taste in their mouthes.

Now... these are just some of the points I myself have noticed. I realize there was an actual effort put into trying to balance this line of spells, because it has since I started on the server, been "Those" spells. And I get why it was made... however when playing now, I experience that they don't function entirely all the time, that on a Bigby/CC focused character, it cause severe issues play wise...
Now granted, one could argue that "Surrounding the target with 15 floating high-five hands... is also a form of crowd control"... - True! ... However where I know there is an effort to manage the Bigby spells more intently, till such a time when the scripts are fully working... I myself (and I know others) would very much like the old spells reverted to their original state... Because at present... they are dissapointly ineffective, and not worth picking as a caster, which I'm sure was never an intention either.

As for the argument that it is more PnP now than before... well, true. But we are playing the video game, not the pnp, and replicating the PnP one don't appear to go over entirely smoothly for this particular example.

Please keep discussion civil, and do please vote.

[Cubicle]

* Neg: NPC or other players being hit by a Bigby may find themselves instantly giving up and with a sour taste in their mouthes.

That's a big negative for me. Sounds to me like these spells would be more acceptable if the hands were scripted to unsummon after the target dies.

[Flasmix]

New Version:

Negative: Attacks party members and non-hostile targets.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Negative: Attacks party members and non-hostile targets.

Schrodinger's Alignment Adjuster

That's a big negative for me. Sounds to me like these spells would be more acceptable if the hands were scripted to unsummon after the target dies.

Area Transitions (AT) works for me regarding visuals.

[Flasmix]

You see, this poll will never work. Most people don't play Mages and don't use Bigby's. They realize it's a useless spell that never works so they're happy with it.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Perhaps, but it shouldn't rule out anything that needs obvious improvement within the module.

[Selande]

Could limit it to one per target somehow?

[Moltrazahn]

There are some very valid points being made.

Non-casters won't vote to get them back... why empower others with one of the most debated "This is OP" spells there are? - Well, one can drop the "Fairness" card all one wants, but it won't counter that others automatically fail once the spell hits either.

Casters however lose out on 5 spells that ain't working as intended. Which ain't fair either really.

If the spells are to fit their new version, their explanation needs updating as well, because all Bigby spells have durations, however in their new format, they basically give you 1 chance to apply the given status effect.

I suppose a work around would be... If the hand's, once summoned, rushed to the target, then cast the original version of the spell on the target on the target... Wouldn't that mean that if you killed the "caster"(the hand) of the Bigby spell in question, the status effect would vanish? ... Because at currently, they just stand there and try to forcefully high-five the target.

The way it appears, is that once you cast the spell, you get the Original effect for a split second, this is where the intended effect either works or fails (depending on the defences of the target), then, the spell is cancelled, and the hand is summoned. From here, we're back to the slaphappy scenario.

Not to mention... in the past, spells that could summon multiple entities have in the past been nerfed on the server. Look at the Edwards Black Tentacles or Chilling Tentacles from warlocks. In the original state, you could spam these... filling an entire map with tentacle-r¤pe. However it also caused server instability.

Unless it's done here, those of us who enjoy using the Bigby spells for CC will face situations of having un-necessary amounts of hands filling a map.

[Herisheft]

I voted "Yes, bring back the old"

I was really disspaointed with how it works, and everything bad with it was already mention, so no reason for me to repeat it.

Also it really looks ridiculous, it may look good while described as a spell, but in reality it looks just stupid.

[Ariella]

* Neg: Don't seem to reapply (attempt to reapply) its intended mechanics.

Sometimes it does apply to new targets as its suppose to, I imagine that it will be fixed later on down the line. I voted to keep them, My current main character makes use of three different bigby's spells and while they are not as powerful as the old versions they are still useful. The old bigbys where just ridiculous.

[Nyeleni]

SNIP

Casters however lose out on 5 spells that ain't working as intended. Which ain't fair either really.

SNIP

Sorry but mages do have so many spells, agreed some are useless, but they still have alternatives to the Bigsby series. Only because you got very comfortable by exploiting it, it shouldn't be brought back.

And talking about fair regarding a caster *shakes head*.

[Moltrazahn]

SNIP

Casters however lose out on 5 spells that ain't working as intended. Which ain't fair either really.

SNIP

Sorry but mages do have so many spells, agreed some are useless, but they still have alternatives to the Bigsby series.Only because you got very comfortable by exploiting it, it shouldn't be brought back.

And talking about fair regarding a caster *shakes head*.

On our server, melee will in most cases not have the same goodies as casters. True. However for a sorcerer, these spells are golden.

Also, please keep it civil... The spells ain't working as intended in any regard at the moment, that is what is being discussed. Personal attacks can be left at the door.

[RagingPeace]

I've never been fond of bigbys, at least not their old version, I can't say I know how they work (Or don't work) atm, but I feel like bringing back the old version would be a bad idea. The only reason I can give you is: Way too overpowered.

[Lux]

Regardless of which mechanics the spells use - old or new - they can probably be changed in power. I see this topic more as discussing how they should work.

[Rasael]

There was a bug in the targeting logic which caused it to select friendly targets. It checks your PC's target, if you had right clicked a party member, it would've targeted that friendly.

If it doesn't find a valid PC selected target it randomly picks a hostile. That part did work.

The bug has been fixed.

It has previously been asked by QC to use the original bigby mechanics with the creature hands. That has also been incorporated. I noticed that you had the same idea in this topic, which reminded me.