Poll about reverting to the old bigby spells.

[Torgerias]

* Pro: More in line with PNP version of Bigby spells, summoning an actual hand.

I have long complained about the efforts by BG developers to bring game mechanics more in-line with PNP when it is so very often inappropriate to do so. PNP rules are not god's word, even though everyone acts like they are, and this is a video game with very different concerns, mechanics, and flow of gameplay. I would list this as a con.

[V'rass]

Same... NWN2 is a pc game not pnp.

[Bad Omens]

I would like it changed back personally.

[Moltrazahn]

I decided to see what I could manage in amount of hands.

Hidden: show

There is only 19 on this pic, at level 23 I was only able to keep that many going before they started to unsummon due to duration.

... It however worked amazing for keeping the mobs occupied

As a sorcerer, I (at present) got 31 uses of hands if I so desired
Granted, I dont think people want to have 31 hands available at a time...

[mrm3ntalist]

Posting on the caping spells at +4 reminded this thread, which was what initiated the discussion between a friend and myself.

For reference, I will post again the quote about how i like to see the term balance

- INTRODUCTION: THE LOGIC OF BALANCING: Feats, spells, skills and abilities of every kind, as well as classes and races, have in my view two balancing criteria: they MUST be balanced according to the gaming environment (and the BEST PLAY: player errors aren't a balance concern) and they MUST have some forms of counterplay (soft counters are better than hard ones, which just tend to make characters "one trick ponies").

Based on that, here is a detailed analysis of the bigby spells with some edits since many here dont like critisism

- ARE THE (vanila) BIGBIES BALANCED? The Bigby line of spells is, with the BG change of Bigby 6 (Forceful Hand), completely congruous with the above statement: the environment an arcane caster has to face was built and tweaked keeping into account his/her ability to cast these spells (which especially against the vast majority of bosses range from extremely important to almost necessary), thus making them PvE balanced by definition, and as far as PvP is concerned generic counters like Spell Mantles (spells, wands and potions), Spell Resistance (items, spells, potions) and Hide in Plain Sight (feat), or more specific ones like for instance extremely high AC and/or simply healing until expiration (Bigby 9), high AB (Bigby 5) or Mind effect (like long lasting spells like Circle vs Alignment and Mind Blank) and knockdown (foundation of stone potion, for instance) immunities satisfy the need for counterplay

- WHY ARE BIGBIES NEEDED? Bigbies are the way Obsidian chose to represent in game the power of spellcasters. Unable to reproduce without devastating consequences iconic spells like Wish, Timestop or the Divination line (starting with the real Premonition) for instance, Bigbies were altered to give mages powerful tools to have a chance at winning battles against opponents with high saves and healing potions. Without them (that is what the current implementation means), a serie of characters (every Red Wizard type, simple caster Wiz20/ASoC10 and the likes) instantly become not worth playing, as they can easily be killed while retaining no chance of being effective against bosses or other players (try to stop that fighter type running to you and dealing 600+ dmg/round on average with a 36 AC mage, if you can). This change effectively pigeon-holes mages into gishes (because the high AC, better saves and ability to melee insure playability), HiPSers (one of the few ways left to survive Boss and player stomps alike), Pale Masters, Blood Magi and Vampiric Feast users.

- WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE NEW BIGBIES? Anyone who played a "classic" caster mage, or that understands anything about NWN2 anyway, knows that those character types cannot survive the unexpected. Very often, a DM spawning 2-3 strong melee mobs on them that open with breaches means unavoidable death because of how concentration checks work (unless you are a gish, have HiPS, PM or BM scars ready, or if you are extremely fast with Boots of Etherealness and the server doesn't stand in your way).
This should make clear that a mage needs a reliable tool to deal with certain threats, and has no second chances in those cases, unlike clerics, FSs, warlocks, druids or fighter types.
The new Bigbies are unreliable, uncontrollable and based on a model, pathing and walking time. Therefore, utterly useless for high level play. Considering that death should have grievous (when not decisive) consequences, this is of course unacceptable.


In light of the above, the changes should be reverted.

Even though I can relate with this analysis, I would like to do everything that can be done, in order to make the bigby hands work in their new form. There are some changes that are being discussed in order to make bigbies more effective and i would like to see those implemented before I decide. However, if the end result is something similar to this, the changes should be reverted

[Moltrazahn]

Thanks for keep us in the loop mrm3ntalist!

Id post a thumbs up symbol, but given this post already has enough backhanded talk about hands, I was hands down scared of delivering a poorly handed joke, despite wanting to give a big hand to you for keeping us involved and handling the situation.


(fades away before criticism occurs)

[WhatsInTheBox]

I really don't think mages need this particular I win button they are godly enough already

[7threalm]

just my two cents on it, I like the new spells because they work pve pretty well as opposed to the older version that were more suited for pvp autowin..sorc still spell builds 60 ac / cast bigby /igms spam

[Valefort]

Btw you will all have to re-learn how to use bigby spells. Since the updates notes were large I post the details concerning the bigby spells here, nothing too alien or bizarre hopefully :

First the vanilla effects are applied once more

Secondly they are reapplied each round (for the spell's duration) as long as the hand is alive.

The hand can be attacked, its main characteristics are :

HP = 200 +10 * HD
DR = HD/3
AC : 25 + HD/3

It is also crit immune, stats are the same for all the hands, HD is caster's HD.

[Moltrazahn]

Thank you for the update val, appreciate it!

[Planehopper]

Locked. I'd love to let the conversation continue but at this point it is too far gone. We will try to clean it up and open it again, but if not it will stay locked.

I know there have been PMs/warnings sent already about this thread, and yet the vitriol and animosity persist. Please take a break and read the forum rules.

ON EDIT: I've deleted a lot of posts. I think it is unfair to expect anyone to go in with a scalpel and dissect each post, pulling out the ok bits before deleting all of the personal attacks, condescending remarks, unfiltered swearing, etc. So I deleted them in bulk.

I will unlock the thread tomorrow sometime so that those of you who want to discuss this politely may do so. If you can't or won't, don't post.

Thanks!

[Planehopper]

I am going to unlock this now to try again. If you'd like to continue to contribute, please keep it civil and on topic.