There's a list of classes that are implemented, but are so broken or weak that nobody really wants to play them, except for a lone player or two (Divine seeker, anyone?).
I was thinking, can we perhaps list those, and propose enhancements to make them more appealing?
Please do try to keep this as on topic as possible, and try to refrain from naming the classes that are really quite viable and much used by themselves.
Those statistics were based on log-ins and log-outs of associated classes. That means if one Divine Seeker logs in, that's a tally. When they log out, that's also a tally.
So it's more about who logs in and out most often with what classes...
QC probably as an ongoing list of stuff that could use a rebalancing.
I'd add Blackguard (beyond lvl 3) as something to take a look at.
A) first decide and declare what the Base Balance of Class/PrC is, so what is suggested can be seen in fair contrast.
B) consider the removal of Classes/PrCs that skew the Base Balance so far, it hampers making fair and decent suggestions (for example, the Favored Soul or Blood Mage).
All I can say is barbarian and bear warrior.. Both are underplayed and bear warrior is riddled with bugs as per my thread: http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=53113
Would love to see barbarians get a bump in the class abilities and rage timer as well as get bear warrior a few bug fixes. I think the class is so unique it makes for great rp and play style if only it was more mechanically appealing.
Storm - The Blade Flurry Druegar Grizzleclaw - The Mountain Ruin Tsar Akroma Thuul - The Creepy Enchanter Liliana Duskblade - The B*tch of Bane Jamie Dawnbringer - The Light in the Darkness
Silverstar is actually not weak, just very specialized. True believer and Selûne. And I'm not sure if the second to last bonus works now: Moon's Hand + 2 Burst.
Other than that, very decent prc.
Truman Capote, Breakfast At Tiffany's "... - it's better to look at the sky than live there. Such an empty place; so vague. Just a country where the thunder goes and things disappear."
IMO, most of those classes are good. I think what Steve is saying is accurate. By empowering these classes (or items, feats,etc) we are just enabling power creep. All those classes, when mixed appropriately can perform perfectly well in our current server environment. They may have less utility than other classes and less mechanical power but they are still viable in pve.
Start by looking at what you are trying to balance them against. I think we should be balancing vs the pve content rather than against other, more powerful classes.
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Thorsson wrote:I agree. I suspect, for instance, that GFK (for one) is quite playable. The problem is that it's different and few have worked out how to play it.
I am a big fan of GFK. It recently got a use per day bump, or, that was once on track to happen (I forget which). I do think GFK is not taken because it's Big Power of scaring to death is easily countered by Protection from Alignment. It takes high investment to get good DCs, then a level 1 spell totally defeats it. But from a PvE standpoint, GFK is a good PRC (if the use per days have been increased). A long time ago I advocated for Cleave to be moved to a lower level on GFK, so it could synergize better with Blackguard. But that was during Luna's time, and he never got around to updating a large number of Classes/PrCs.
There's only like 2-3 viable build combinations with GFK (by viable I mean optimized, you can pick gfk on your rogue assassin and still have a playable character, but it's not optimized), it's not really strange that there's so few of them. It's a niche class which works very well in a few niche builds.
I mean hips at level 1 is good, yeah, but there are nine levels after that could get a little bit of love.
Should be noted I am playing one of those shadowdancer 10 characters, so I am obviously biased. But compare shadowdancer10 to assassin10, for instance (rather than shadowdancer3 to assassin8).
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A lot of 10 levels in PRCs are really bad, compared to alternative routes a character can take. Here are some ideas from the top of my head:
- Black Flame Zealot -> fix: Change Spellcasting progression from 5/10 to 7/10
- Blackguard -> fix: Spell list needs to include useful spells : Death Ward / GMW. Also, some way to increase CL (maybe calculation with (1/2 * char level)+BG up to max CL=Char LVL).
- Dragon Warrior -> fix: +2 or 3 AC over 10 levels
- Dragonslayer -> fix: Change Spellcasting progression from 5/10 to 7/10
- Shadowdancer -> fix: +2d6 or 3d6 SA over 10 levels.
- Warpriest -> fix: Change Spellcasting progression from 5/10 to 7/10
The general principle would be to make the whole 10 levels worthwhile. Model example of a PRC where you feel like you're progressing is Pale Master. It's worth to take 4 or 5 levels dips of PM but 10 levels of it are great.
Agree with matelener and like his suggestions. Just put the goodies after level 3 so its worth investing at least that 1 more level... which might turn into just one more.. and so on..
Storm - The Blade Flurry Druegar Grizzleclaw - The Mountain Ruin Tsar Akroma Thuul - The Creepy Enchanter Liliana Duskblade - The B*tch of Bane Jamie Dawnbringer - The Light in the Darkness
It would be great to have casters with 26+BAB and 30CL. Then we only need to give Barbarians, Fighter etc spells and every class would be the same.
I can see a High BAB divine PRC to get 7/10 progression since diviners have medium BAB ( Do diviners need the power boost though? ) but to do that for arcanists as well and go from low BAB to High BAB with more than half CL? That is too much...
Pious Templar is planned to be ( unless something changes ) a Paladin/Blackguard PRC with 10/10 CL progression. That is another 10CL for blackguard and another 4 from PSc.
SD is not as weak as people make it out to be. It gives the two prereqs for epic dodge, so any build ( other than rogue ) can get epic dodge. As far as rogues are concerned, by getting the epic dodge feats from SD allows you to pick 1 or 2 improved sneak atack feats ( instead of Defensive roll and Improved evasion ), ending with 11 or 12 SA dice which is normal. Adding 2 or 3 more dice as was suggested would be a rogue's wet dream, since it ends with 13-15SA which is the "max" a rogue can get.
Another option is not to go for the extra SA dice, but go for combat insight for extra damage on all attacks ( 3-5 damage depending on the build ) and keep all other rogue feats - its very difficult to fit all rogue feats and combat insight on most common rogue builds( Epic precision, Epic Dodge, EW etc ).
Thids covered GFK pretty well. I wanted for them to have true seeing 2xday but my suggestion wasnt implemented. Other than that, giving them cleave at a lower level might have a better synergy with BG giving them an extra feat. Thids covered it nicely by saying there are a handful of builds that GFK is good.
To sum it up, its easy to say lets give this class this and this and this and make it better but it is not always the right/balanced/correct thing to do.
I believe that some melee classes need to be looked at and are looked at. For everything else, Rasaels kits can give different paths (eg non casting rangers with powerful feats, non edm paladins with shield slam and bonus feats etc ) and of course new prcs can fix weakness of current classes eg the blackguard issue.
