Beefing up the "broken" classes

[Snarfy]

Adding 2 or 3 more dice as was suggested would be a rogue's wet dream, since it ends with 13-15SA which is the "max" a rogue can get.

I have character with 16 *edit* ... wait, it's only 15. *curses*

I think SD is pretty decent as is, but one more sneak dice would round it out nicely.

I wanted for them to have true seeing 2xday but my suggestion wasnt implemented. Other than that, giving them cleave at a lower level might have a better synergy with BG giving them an extra feat. Thids covered it nicely by saying there are a handful of builds that GFK is good.

Bringing cleave down to the lower levels certainly would have helped my GFK build out a bit. So far(he's at level 18 or 19, I think) it's a very fun character to play with, but is really feat starved(the feats I took in the epic levels are not the best choices, but I was focusing on maximizing his frightful attack, sooo...)

A lot of 10 levels in PRCs are really bad, compared to alternative routes a character can take. Here are some ideas from the top of my head:

- Black Flame Zealot -> fix: Change Spellcasting progression from 5/10 to 7/10

... Worst. PRC. Ever. Literally. To this day I don't know why anyone would take it for any other reasons than purely role-play(and you'd have to be pretty hardcore to even consider it).

[matelener]

It would be great to have 26+BAB with 30CL. Then we only need to give Barbarians, Fighter etc spells and every class would be the same.

I can see a High BAB divine PRC to get 7/10 progression since diviners have medium BAB ( Do diviners need the power boost though? ) but to do that for arcanists as well and go from low BAB to High BAB with more than half CL? That is too much...

With my dragonslayer suggestion, you may end up with maximum 25 BAB and 30 CL with a simple build 10 wizard / 10 EK / 10 Dragonslayer. Now, it's 25 BAB and 28 CL. What's the difference in that 2 CL? At level 30 - Protection from Greater Dispel Magic. Is it too much to give, if we consider how useless dispelled gishes are?

An arcane gish has to spend 6 feats (3 epic) just on spellcasting: Extend Spell, Still Spell, Practiced Spellcaster, Auto-still I / II / III. Then, 2 feats on dragonslayer requirements. This is a guarantee that a gish will never be as effective as a fighter in melee. He has survival tools making him a better soloer but he isn't remotely close in power to a favored soul.

You have to also remember that Dragonslayer is open to all spellcasters, both divine and arcane.

Pious Templar is planned to be ( unless something changes ) a Paladin/Blackguard PRC with 10/10 CL progression. That is another 10CL for blackguard and another 4 from PSc.

CL won't matter if the spell list continues to be trash.

SD is not as weak as people make it out to be. It gives the two prereqs for epic dodge, so any build ( other than rogue ) can get epic dodge. As far as rogues are concerned, by getting the epic dodge feats from SD allows you to pick 1 or 2 improved sneak atack feats ( instead of Defensive roll and Improved evaion ), ending with 11 or 12 SA dice which is normal. Adding 2 or 3 more dice as was suggested would be a rogue's wet dream, since it ends with 13-15SA which is the "max" a rogue can get.

It's weak. I know of only one person who took 10 levels of SD, and only for RP purposes.

Consider a choice between two Epic Dodge qualifying builds (and with Epic Precision):

A) 17 rogue / 3 SD -

you've got the damage, you can cover the weaknesses of the rogue with the remaining levels

B) 10 rogue / 10 SD -

you have to go for more SA because you lack the damage, and when you do, your AB and saves will be horrible

[Snarfy]

Consider a choice between two Epic Dodge qualifying builds (and with Epic Precision):

A) 17 rogue / 3 SD -

you've got the damage, you can cover the weaknesses of the rogue with the remaining levels

B) 10 rogue / 10 SD -

you have to go for more SA because you lack the damage, and when you do, your AB and saves will be horrible

Keep in mind the SD 10 will also get 20% concealment, 10/adamantine damage reduction and +4 dodge bonus. Plus uncanny dodge(improved?), and the teleport that was added to BG's version. That's not nothing. (defensive roll and improved evasion are worth it alone... now that I think about it, SD is kind of loaded)

And it will do damage comparatively... sure, it needs an extra round using HiPS and attacking out of stealth, but still.

As for AB, slipping in Bodyguard 5 will bring that up a bit(and it adds Sneak attacks), then you've got 5 levels left to work with. And saves, well... good luck making any rogue heavy split that has remotely decent saves(have you ever been feared by the tigers north of Beregost on a level 30? I have! )

[Karond]

... Worst. PRC. Ever. Literally. To this day I don't know why anyone would take it for any other reasons than purely role-play(and you'd have to be pretty hardcore to even consider it).

Aha, a challenge good sir is it?

My hypothetical black flame zealot will happily duel your hypothetical divine seeker anytime!

[Snarfy]

... Worst. PRC. Ever. Literally. To this day I don't know why anyone would take it for any other reasons than purely role-play(and you'd have to be pretty hardcore to even consider it).

Aha, a challenge good sir is it?

My hypothetical black flame zealot will happily duel your hypothetical divine seeker anytime!

Deal! Although, can we wait until my(actual!) divine seeker has song of requiem? (since it's the only thing besides hiding and running away that might help him survive)

[mrm3ntalist]

With my dragonslayer suggestion, you may end up with maximum 25 BAB and 30 CL with a simple build 10 wizard / 10 EK / 10 Dragonslayer. Now, it's 25 BAB and 28 CL. What's the difference in that 2 CL? At level 30 - Protection from Greater Dispel Magic. Is it too much to give, if we consider how useless dispelled gishes are?

25ΒΑΒ is one BAB too short. The target should be 26 for 7 attacks with haste. This gives a boost to damage that such builds might lack of.

They are not useless if they are dispelled if you treat them like fighters. This means to have your Natural, Armor and shield AC gear and not rely 100per cent on spells. Then dispells are not such a big issue especially for sorcerers - who can counterspell and rebuff more efficiently. There are not many mobs with high enough CL to dispel a CL26build with Gr dispell.

Dispellers were toned done and reduced in numbers after the dispel fix.

An arcane gish has to spend 6 feats (3 epic) just on spellcasting: Extend Spell, Still Spell, Practiced Spellcaster, Auto-still I / II / III. Then, 2 feats on dragonslayer requirements. This is a guarantee that a gish will never be as effective as a fighter in melee.

I know what you need to make a gish. I played one for years and It was much more efficient to play than any non caster build. I stop playing that build because of a combination of boredom and many players starting rolling those.

For the end i kept a comment you made.

He has survival tools making him a better soloer but he isn't remotely close in power to a favored soul.

You have to also remember that Dragonslayer is open to all spellcasters, both divine and arcane.

There are no plans whatsoever to make any class as powerful as FS is. Using FS for balance reasons is illogical.

Because DS is available for Arcanists, it will be difficult - for me - to increase its CL progression.

It's weak. I know of only one person who took 10 levels of SD, and only for RP purposes.

Consider a choice between two Epic Dodge qualifying builds (and with Epic Precision):

A) 17 rogue / 3 SD -

you've got the damage, you can cover the weaknesses of the rogue with the remaining levels

B) 10 rogue / 10 SD -

you have to go for more SA because you lack the damage, and when you do, your AB and saves will be horrible

I hope you mean rogue27/3SD and 20rogue/10SD? You see that you compare two SD builds. Of course the one with less SD and more bonus rogue epic feats will have more sneak dice. Compare it with common assasin builds and you will see that they are short of 2d6 dice while they get the SDs abilities.

Second, not all hips classes are/should be for rogues. Not all classes have to be the same. Kama monk11/SD5 are very common while TWF dexers with 10SD would be a pain to hit - High AC and Epic dodge.

Then there was dzideks ( or valeforts? ) clever idea of a parry build with SD10, that i never put to test. That could be "impossible" to hit by one handers - 1st attack parry, 2nd Epic dodge if hit, 3rd parry, 4th High AC or epic dodge if not hit on second, 5th attack parry, 6th attack if you have a build that can be hit on the 6th attack you should rcr

[Thorsson]

SD10 has had boosts, but it is still a little underwhelming. However SD5 is a viable pick.

Equally while there are numerous Swashbucklers, how many go beyond level 7?

There are some going up to 14 or 19 for wounding and weakening critical. Apart from that, no idea!

Weakening Critical isn't that great and 19 levels of Swashbuckler leaves you stretched to fit in other things that you need, because you really need Epic Precision after investing so much, or accept that you totally suck against crit immunes. And SB19/Ro11 would have a pretty sucky AB and no HiPS or Epic Dodge. Underwhelming.

[Deathgrowl]

SD10 has had boosts, but it is still a little underwhelming. However SD5 is a viable pick.

Equally while there are numerous Swashbucklers, how many go beyond level 7?

There was discussion a while ago, suggesting to give swashbucklers evasion at ~level 11. Means it's not a dip evasion class, but could make people consider getting some more levels of swashbuckler. Maybe level 11 is too early, though?

[Thorsson]

There was discussion a while ago, suggesting to give swashbucklers evasion at ~level 11. Means it's not a dip evasion class, but could make people consider getting some more levels of swashbuckler. Maybe level 11 is too early, though?

Think of it this way; you could instead get SB7/WD4, so 11 doesn't seem out of order. Rangers get it at 9.

[chad878262]

With my dragonslayer suggestion, you may end up with maximum 25 BAB and 30 CL with a simple build 10 wizard / 10 EK / 10 Dragonslayer. Now, it's 25 BAB and 28 CL. What's the difference in that 2 CL? At level 30 - Protection from Greater Dispel Magic. Is it too much to give, if we consider how useless dispelled gishes are?

An arcane gish has to spend 6 feats (3 epic) just on spellcasting: Extend Spell, Still Spell, Practiced Spellcaster, Auto-still I / II / III. Then, 2 feats on dragonslayer requirements. This is a guarantee that a gish will never be as effective as a fighter in melee. He has survival tools making him a better soloer but he isn't remotely close in power to a favored soul.

You have to also remember that Dragonslayer is open to all spellcasters, both divine and arcane.

You also need to consider that if you make that build in to a W6/HA4/EK10/DS10 (assuming moving to 7/10 progression) you could now end up with BAB 26 and CL 29. (-1 CL for HA, -3 for DS, -1 EK +4 PSC). So while your W10/EK10/DS10 may not seem OP, there are other ways to increase the power. Throw in that there are discussions about Harper Agent improvements from time to time and it could make the build CL 30, if it were decided to give HA full progression. As it stands now DS is pretty balanced IMO. You can go W13/EK10/DS7, for instance and have a decent balance of BAB 23 and CL 30, or you can mix in other ways, sacrificing CL 30 for other benefits. Giving DS more progression opens up a lot of potential to make some OP Gish builds. They already do just fine as is.

[Thorsson]

I agree; DS is pretty damned useful because you also get the Weapon & Armor Proficiencies and Tumble Skill.