quick question about stat cap; spell dc; and armor ac

[pwdcrk1]

hi all,
i just need to clarify to myself some doubts that i have since a while

1
is there any ability bonus cap in effect ? or one can add as many points ( from level ups and items ) in a particular sta as he wants ?

2
wich is a good dc range for spells ( end game level) ? i mean wich span is considered low ( 10-15 maybe? ) wich one medium ( 16-20 ? ) wich above average ( 21-25 ? ) and wich one golden ( 26-30 ? )

3
how many ac is considered good for end game level player ? ( for example a warlock with 49-52 ac is medium low or high ? )

thanks for infos

cheers

[Akroma666]

1. Yes, there is a soft cap at +12 on an ability modifier.
2. Depends on the saving throw and the class of course.
I usually try and get a DC of 38+ as considered:

3. 50+ is great. Unless you build for pure ac or DR

[Tsidkenu]

1. Stat increase from items and level up points (and epic stat feats) should be considered separately. Levels & epic feats increase the base amount, and the limit for these rests in as many stat points (7) and epic feats (10 max for epic fighter) that you're prepared to pump into them.

Items with + stat do not stack with spells or items of the same type (with exception of a handful of paladin spells & barbarian rage), but will add to the base amount described above. The maximum overall bonus for stats is +12, basically only achieved by druids using the Owl's Insight spell for wisdom and stacking Barbarian rage to STR & CON.

2. Saving throw DCs are dependent on spell level, caster level, casting stat & bonuses. If you can be hitting DC 38+ for level 9 spells, you're pretty much doing as well as can be done without taking an uber specialist Red Wizard or Shadow Adept/Blood Mage/Archmage combo to bump it up a few notches more.

3. Anything 50+ is good, 60+ is druid & dwarven defender territory. Two handers, dual wielders and archers typically sit in low-mid 40s, unarmoured mages in high 30s/ low 40s.

[Karond]

1.) You can at most get 50 in a single ability, such as strength, constitution etc. You can at most get +12 from spells and items, and these don't stack. You get the highest bonus from a spell or item only.

2.) 30+spell level. Less than that and you're not a good DC caster.

3.) 50 is pretty good. Most monsters don't get an AB higher than 30, so 50 means you're rarely hit. Some bosses do have higher AB, of course, and more is better, but with 50 AC you'll definitely live. Some things can substitute for AC though, like having a lower AC but displacement and mirror image makes it easy to not be harmed. If you've a decent speed, or intend to fight from the back, you'll also need less.

[pwdcrk1]

Ok so

Max stat cap bonus is +12 but considering also items in the count then max stat bonus from level ups and feat will be +10 right ? Ok

DC
Then DC is pain in ... ( you get the idea ) everyone till now says that 30+ spell level is good but for example in my build ( basically a pure warlock - I have 4 black guard levels but I took practiced invoker ) I am now at level 25 I got spell casting prodigy at first and invested al level ups stat on cha ( actual bonus +9 ) I have a DC on utter dark blast of 28 ( lvl9) and on noxious of 25 ( lvl6 ) and they get resisted really often even considering the aura of despair granted by black guard ... Not considering that they also get even quite often spell resisted (even if I'm lvl 25 )

My final stat bonus ( cha ) will be including items +10 but as the builder says ( maybe is not correct ) my final DC will be 24+ spell level so max 33 then 6 minus the number you all consider normal for a non red wizard or blood Magus

[matelener]

DC for warlocks and sorcerers might be few points lower and still very effective because of the higher number of casts (in warlock's case, an infinite). I feel comfortable with DC = 27 + spell level on my sorcerer.

[mrm3ntalist]

DC
Then DC is pain in ... ( you get the idea ) everyone till now says that 30+ spell level is good but for example in my build ( basically a pure warlock - I have 4 black guard levels but I took practiced invoker ) I am now at level 25 I got spell casting prodigy at first and invested al level ups stat on cha ( actual bonus +9 ) I have a DC on utter dark blast of 28 ( lvl9) and on noxious of 25 ( lvl6 ) and they get resisted really often even considering the aura of despair granted by black guard ... Not considering that they also get even quite often spell resisted (even if I'm lvl 25 )

The DCs for warlocks will never become as high as sorcerers/wizards. The reason is obvious and that is the infinite amount of spells they have.

My final stat bonus ( cha ) will be including items +10 but as the builder says ( maybe is not correct ) my final DC will be 24+ spell level so max 33 then 6 minus the number you all consider normal for a non red wizard or blood Magus

You can get very good DCs with a warlock and blackguard ( for the -2 to opponents saves, which is equal to +2DC for you). With such builds the end game DCs can be 36-37 which are very very good. I dont think warlocks should even be able to have such high DCs

[pwdcrk1]

also i'm not sure where i found this info ( i tried to find out but i fear was in the old forum ) then I'm not sure that is a real thing

but

is it true that after a certain level of warlock all invocations ( blasts and essences i mean ) are considered as ESL ( equivalent spell level) of 9 even if originally was lower ?

i think i have read this this long time ago but as i said i cannot find it anymore

any of you have any idea of that ?

[Karond]

Ok so

Max stat cap bonus is +12 but considering also items in the count then max stat bonus from level ups and feat will be +10 right ? Ok

Level up ability points (you get 7 from level 1-30) and feats (like epic strength) doesn't factor into the cap. The cap of +12 is only for spells and items.

DC
Then DC is pain in ... ( you get the idea ) everyone till now says that 30+ spell level is good but for example in my build ( basically a pure warlock -

Warlocks can survive on less, because they have an infinite amount of spells. However, warlocks have a slightly easier time too. Everyone has DCs like this:

10 - Base
X - ability stat (charisma for warlocks)
Y - spell level
Z - feats and caster level

If your final charisma is 30 with items and spells, and your caster level will be 30 (so +3 DC from caster levels, you get +1 each at level 23, 26, 29), then you'll get:

10 base + 10 charisma +3 caster level +spell level = 23+spell level

However, warlocks are a cheaty cheaty bunch, probably due to those pacts they make So, they've an exception to the rule (to answer your latest post). While a sorcerer with these stats would get a DC of 25 for a level 2 spell, a warlock won't. A warlock always gets 9 for spell level (well, our custom invocations get their spell level).

So most of your spells will be cast at DC of 23+9 = 32, then you've the blackguard aura, so it's really like 34. This is okay. It's not fantastic, but against monsters you'll do fine against most things that aren't bosses.

[pwdcrk1]

Ok so

Max stat cap bonus is +12 but considering also items in the count then max stat bonus from level ups and feat will be +10 right ? Ok

Level up ability points (you get 7 from level 1-30) and feats (like epic strength) doesn't factor into the cap. The cap of +12 is only for spells and items.

DC
Then DC is pain in ... ( you get the idea ) everyone till now says that 30+ spell level is good but for example in my build ( basically a pure warlock -

Warlocks can survive on less, because they have an infinite amount of spells. However, warlocks have a slightly easier time too. Everyone has DCs like this:

10 - Base
X - ability stat (charisma for warlocks)
Y - spell level
Z - feats and caster level

If your final charisma is 30 with items and spells, and your caster level will be 30 (so +3 DC from caster levels, you get +1 each at level 23, 26, 29), then you'll get:

10 base + 10 charisma +3 caster level +spell level = 23+spell level

However, warlocks are a cheaty cheaty bunch, probably due to those pacts they make So, they've an exception to the rule (to answer your latest post). While a sorcerer with these stats would get a DC of 25 for a level 2 spell, a warlock won't. A warlock always gets 9 for spell level (well, our custom invocations get their spell level).

So most of your spells will be cast at DC of 23+9 = 32, then you've the blackguard aura, so it's really like 34. This is okay. It's not fantastic, but against monsters you'll do fine against most things that aren't bosses.

ok thats cool

do you also know after wich level all blasts counts as lvl 9 ? since at lvl 25 they still keep their ESL (at least on my toon )