Possible QC change - Community input appreciated

[Empoweredfan]

There will always be classes we don't like. I have significant more issues with other classes than the fs. We have to realize that no matter our feelings on the issue, it shouldn't destroy the game for those that play them. A little nerfing is probably survivable. Pick it appart, and you destroy a lot of characters. There are other classes that I'd prefered changed before this one. Many of those changes would be very unpopular with those that play those classes. Just as there are some things that I cannot believe that others are fine with.

[Sputnik]

I think that reducing the spells known per level to that of a sorcerer will do wonders in balancing Favored Souls.

[Moltrazahn]

Perhaps a poll on the matter?

[LISA100595]

From an RP aspect - I just imagine telling all the Favored Souls on the server one day.. "Oh hey guys we deleted /changed this class, sorry 'bout yer luck, if you want to play your character, you'll have to change your entire backstory and RP to that of a Cleric." or something like that.

The dispel fix (although was a bug all along) has already nerfed this as well as many other class and build combinations... Even a couple of my own characters, yes I RP all the classes of my characters, and am now having to RCR them and find a reason to change the RP entirely which does Not add to my enjoyment of the server. In fact I don't even feel like playing those characters at all anymore.

[Calodan]

From your response I think you misunderstood what was proposed. It's not Available Spells to be CAST per day, it's Spells KNOWN. You'd know less spells but could still cast the same amount.

Still no effect. At all the levels I have RP spells I took instead of other spells. All this change would do is force me to drop the RP related spells. AKA Bless Water and some others that were recently added. Which is exactly what will happen if you just take away known spells. So I personally do not see how that does a thing to the class but continually railroad it down the very path of lack of properly RP'd which seems to be the second complaint on why people want it limited or erased which IMHO is a issue for them personally not the server as to me this is telling others how to do their RP and I thought this was a cooperative server? I mean you have to do your very best to get lore appropriate and some things are non-negotiable AKA Red Wizards and some other select things. With that said here is the big question then. I have read the proper lore on FvS' direct from the lore book myself as well so you do not have to assume I am a complete dunce on this one as when I moved Kory to that class I wanted to make sure I did my best to RP it. This of course was minus the fact he was not a FvS from the start and I rolled that over and over again in my head and discussed it with other people more educated than I in the RP of Divine magic. How it could be attained if it were and some other things that could fit the change. Without further ADO WHAT IS THE PROPER WAY TO RP THE FvS? I feel like no matter what I do I am not properly RPing anything really. In fact I would go so far as to say that is a big reason I have not been around lately because I feel like the idiot in the room with all the talk of how so many players are "POOR RPERS" it gnaws at me. I spend so much time thinking about how to "PROPERLY RP" That I feel like I lose the creativity of myself and am unable to even RP at all and it loses a fun factor. I am not saying the staff or everyone does this to me but the truth in my mind is that the RP here is for elite RPers. Don't get me wrong I do attempt to read lore and understand everyone's POV as it would be unwise of me to not try. I just feel like that is where these things of applications and nerfing and not being educated enough to RP a game class are pushing the thought process and that can be not only intimidating but a big turnoff for any gamer and new gamer to continue to play this game. As usual I will do my best to "PROPERLY RP" Kory if that is even possible since he RCR'D into FvS which was done well over a year now and not recent with the new fixes and updates. I still love it here and am trying to repair old relationships that I thoroughly hosed down with fire being a dysfunctional veteran. Have fun and remember! PEACE BE THE JOURNEY!

[TheLier]

On phone so I will keep it short. All who pick FS are personificatons of the deity Which chose them personally. They can never really escape their true selves, so it should be damn restrictive rp wise. Am I wrong?

[mrm3ntalist]

On phone so I will keep it short. All who pick FS are personificatons of the deity Which chose them personally. They can never really escape their true selves, so it should be damn restrictive rp wise. Am I wrong?

No you are not.

Change the class description. Problem solved.

[Ithilan]

I am opposed to most of what ive read here. Yes I do play a FS, or did for quite a while and it is but one in a long line of them ive played.

However, I feel the problem you are trying to adress is only going to be replaced if you ultimately remove FS or nerf it down to a point of being invalid for many build considerations.

With changes the FOTM changes occasionaly, this is not new, there was a time where 2/3 PCs on the server were gishes as well. I think Xanfyrst nailed it on page one when he said it would be better to see other classes brought on pair with what the FS builds can offer at the moment, else this is going to be a downwards spiral nerfing every other classes that is some what excelling at things others are not, till every player around is a UMD wand junkie.. I dont like this direction at all.

Power is relative, it is dependant on the scenario. What is the current problem with the FS class, that they can solo most of the servers content? Is it the wonky RP? Does someone have really bad PvP experiences? What exactly is it that gnaws are people wanting to diminish the class to a shadow of it self?

There are many viable builds for achieving success individualy in PvE/PvM and there are far scarier builds out there for PvP than a FS. But what exactly is the aim here and what is the reason behind it? Ive spoken with a variety of people that all have strong opinions about the FS class, some good, some bad.. I have yet to hear a good argument as to why it bothers people greatly.. should we all be mediocre builds with the average joe mentality of never daring to leave the cities unless we gather an army, or what exactly is the deal?

Delete FS, nerf it in to the ground.. and in a few days, weeks or months, we will be having a bard discussion, going back to this and the procedure of how FS gets scaled down, I forsee changes that impact many classes till they lose their charm and identity.

RP wise, FS are not so intrigueing if you ask me and in many departments they are quite lackluster, but we all have different prefferances and I like diversity and freedom of choice. When I played my latest FS actively I was approached by a former DM on some occasions in events, asked to take a more laid back role for the sake of balancing his event to the others participating, this was not a problem at all and gave some depth to my character in the scenarios that might not have been there without. But still.. outside of this I do not see what the actual problem with the FS class is and I fear where the thoughline of nerfing things will take us in the end.

There will always be a flavour of the month when you update and balance things, nerfs only creates more issues as I see it.

Any ways, im not particulary fussed about any decision, just dont like the thought pattern that is usually the basis for nerfing things.

[thids]

Nerfing FS isn't "nerfing things for the sake of nerfing things" as some people like to present it here. Nerfing FS is bringing a class into the lines drawn by the BGTSCC's setting. FS steps out of that line big time, more than others. When will the nerfing stop? When all the classes are within those borders. That does not mean perfect balance, that means that when something new is introduced, the QC and the staff can actually say "we made this prc/base class this way because it fits very well into what we have on the server" without it sounding like a ridiculous joke like it does right now. Because right now all you have to say is "LOL FAVORED SOULS".

[Ithilan]

Nerfing FS isn't "nerfing things for the sake of nerfing things" as some people like to present it here. Nerfing FS is bringing a class into the lines drawn by the BGTSCC's setting. FS steps out of that line big time, more than others. When will the nerfing stop? When all the classes are within those borders. That does not mean perfect balance, that means that when something new is introduced, the QC and the staff can actually say "we made this prc/base class this way because it fits very well into what we have on the server" without it sounding like a ridiculous joke like it does right now. Because right now all you have to say is "LOL FAVORED SOULS".

I ask you again, in what content is this power an issue? Is it the solo viabbility you want brought down to be a party effort going beyond mid level ranged areas? Is it PVP or what is it?

Yelling FS LOL is not exactly a viable argument.

[arakes99]

I started this discussion on the QC side because FvS is probably the one class that can solo every epic boss, save one, out of every class on the server without spending massive amounts on healing/scrolls to do so.

Because of this almost unfettered power, you see this class at the head of many guilds, taking the forefront in many DM events. Power is advantage, there are plenty of FvS players who RP VERY well to go along with the mechanical advantage their characters have.

All of that bothers me a lot less than one thing in particular though, the EDM FvS. Which is really the only build I sought to see rebalanced because it is the best of breed in so many aspects that it is generally all you see out of the class.

I actually applaud players like Calodan, who took this class without going down that road. Stat wise, feat wise and anything else you can name it nets a weaker build.

All of that said, after reading through the dozens of posts in QC and what must getting close to another 100 here I am having second thoughts. Because there are players who really like this class, and who are feeling singled out by this discussion and that's crap.

We are all here to have fun, first and foremost. It doesn't matter your playstyle, the "Level" at which you like to RP or whether you agree with some tweaks to the settings (RWOT's in BG). You still keep logging on because you like it, or you wouldn't. If this change is going to drive away even one long term player or ruin the fun for any handful then I have honestly changed my mind and kind of wish I'd let the dragon sleep.

I don't think the class in and of itself is out of alignment with the server in any meaningful way outside of a mix with cleric, paladin or blackguard. A cleric and the bard and even some wiz/sorc gishes can do VERY well and quite comparably in many modes of play. Unfortunately we cannot scale back, inhibit or do anything to limit Epic Divine Might for this class without effecting dozens of other builds negatively.

So I ask only to the people that play an FvS, what do you have to suggest about this?

It's your characters that will be effected but the fact remains that in more ways than any other class the FvS stands at the top, and most people don't even consider it without EDM on their minds.

[Akroma666]

I started this discussion on the QC side because FvS is probably the one class that can solo every epic boss, save one, out of every class on the server without spending massive amounts on healing/scrolls to do so.

I believe bard and druid both can do this fairly easily as well.. I just think FvS are just easier to level with more diversity because you get to basically be a "Super Fighter."
I agree it doesn't need to be removed or nurfed into the ground, then we will see bards everywhere.. and I don't want to feel like I'm stuck in-between 2 stages at a concert battle.

I think the simple spells known drop will fix this and limit options.

[Karond]

My suggestion (although not myown):[/u][/b]
Reduce the spells known progression to be on par with a sorcerer.

In addition i would say change their spell progression to match a sorc's as Akroma666 suggests

or the spells as was also brought up?

it seems lowering number of spells and removing DR are good options for FS balance imo
)

The ones that stood out to me would be lowering the spells per day to be more inline with sorcerers,

making the amount of spells same as a sorcerer

-Change to the the spellcasting system proposed by Akroma

I think that reducing the spells known per level to that of a sorcerer will do wonders in balancing Favored Souls.

Food for thought:

Level 1: alignment, bless, favor, conviction, shield of faith
Level 2: aid, bulls, eagle/owl, silence, bears
Level 3: vestment, prayer, vigor, blind sight
Level 4: GMW, deathward, freedom, divine power
Level 5: spell resistance, battletide, righteous might, lesser mantle
Level 6: Stonebody, energy immunity, vigorous cycle
Level 7: Ethereal jaunt, regenerate, greater restoration
Level 8: aura vs alignment, mass deathward, summon creature VIII
Level 9: Mass heal, etherealness, energy drain

--------

Sorry about the sarcasm, but would you look at that? Next to nothing happened

Look closer on the original suggestion instead. FS gains much from its synergy with various charisma feats. The change takes that away, more or less. Because wisdom isn't as versatile FS builds would be prone to do a minimum amount of it in good builds. This means that, among other things, they get a few less spells per day than they currently get as well. So, less spells, a heavy a sacrifice for EDM, less saves without dark blessing and the like.

No Atlas, that's not the domain of paladins. Most deities are not sponsoring paladins. You're thinking of divine champions for the general use of that sentence. Paladins are a niche for only a few.

Theodore01, no it does do quite a bit on its own. We should take care not to hurt the class even more, as it might make it less desirable to play. It's worth looking into something else, whether an addition or removal, especially so if the class get rebranded and renamed as something else.

It's also possible that nothing will happen to the class at all.

[Kiran]

I have already said I would like to see a nerf or reduction in power atleast, but after reading some good arguments, including Ashan's, Karond's and Shandrils I can now see the problem of "If we nerf this class, what about this class?!" attitude that might come in, meaning we could perhaps lose people who have rp'd/played that class for years.

I am relatively new so I can easily adapt and make a new char if it was to be destroyed, so selfishly I said kill the class or nerf it hard, but I did not then think of the people who been one for years, roleplaying a awesome character to boot who are now getting punished for it.

But this does not help with the problem of "what should be done" - Maybe as mentioned boosting the characters people technically would want to be instead of a FVS is a solution, looking at the people rping paladins/blackguards and Clerics, but again, my opnion might change again depending on what people write as I am relatively new and not able to perhaps see the whole picture.

[Akroma666]

Valid point Kaarond, but it's something.. if the community is calling for some sort of nurf, start small rather than force everyone or rebuild from scratch and go for wisdom.