Possible QC change - Community input appreciated

[Karond]

Valid point Kaarond, but it's something.. if the community is calling for some sort of nurf, start small rather than force everyone or rebuild from scratch and go for wisdom.

Granted, if people are of the idea that a wis change is too harsh, a spell reduction is a valid alternative. Is that the case? I don't get that vibe reading this topic, nor the people I quoted. Even so, both options force rebuilds.

[Akroma666]

Valid point Kaarond, but it's something.. if the community is calling for some sort of nurf, start small rather than force everyone or rebuild from scratch and go for wisdom.

Granted, if people are of the idea that a wis change is too harsh, a spell reduction is a valid alternative. Is that the case? I don't get that vibe reading this topic, nor the people I quoted. Even so, both options force rebuilds.

True, but one doesn't force an RP change.

[mrm3ntalist]

Valid point Kaarond, but it's something.. if the community is calling for some sort of nurf, start small rather than force everyone or rebuild from scratch and go for wisdom.

Karond explained to you that the less spells known, will do absoultely nothing. He posted an example spell selection.

The change to Wisdom for spells known on the other hand, forces FS to invest more if they want to qualify for EDM and know less spells pwerday.

With less spells known things will be exactly the same.

[Flasmix]

We should take care not to hurt the class even more, as it might make it less desirable to play. It's worth looking into something else, whether an addition or removal, especially so if the class get rebranded and renamed as something else.

By curbing the power, it will make this class less desirable and make other classes more desirable. I believe that's the whole point. If everybody knows that FvS is the best, more people will flock to them just for the ease of use and being able to be top tier without having to try as hard as other classes.

I disagree then, the whole point is to make it less desirable.

FvS was already nerfed once by changing Regeneration and Greater Restoration. The outcome also nerfed Clerics and Druids and by proxy, it means fighters and other pure melee's get less healing done by the true support classes.

The nerf that was done was clearly not enough if they're able to solo bosses.

As for simply lowering the spells known, it's already been proven that it will have little to no impact. RP flavour spells simply won't be taken and Karond, you already pointed out that nothing will change by lowering the spells with your example.

[Akroma666]

Hey man, I don't even have a FvS.. what do I know, just regurgitating community ideas. You change that stat to wisdom, welcome the battle of the bands.

[mrm3ntalist]

Hey man, I don't even have a FvS.. what do I know, just regurgitating community ideas. You change that stat to wisdom, welcome the battle of the bands.

How do you mean?

[Akroma666]

How do you mean?

IMHO, Bards are just as powerful as FvS, just much more of a pain to level. RCR eliminates that, so what will people do? Show me a FvS that was claimed to be OP in a PvP setting, Ill show you a Bard with Mords and a dead FvS. Bards can also do the same boss soloing..

[Ithilan]

I can solo the exactly same things on my bard as I can on my FS.. difference is I dont have to rest as frequently and im not even the "cookie cutter" bard powerbuild.

I can list quite a few builds that should be able to solo this content. But is that really the problem?

You mention guild figure heads Arakes and how they lead the foray in to battle. And a strong dislike of EDM FS variants and this is my problem with the debate, these specific characters or more so the role they fill in group content will just be replaced by the next powerhouse out there and suddenly we are talking about nerfing them too.

I used to play on a server in NWN1 where clerics were really the go-to for years, because of their magic abbilities to pretty much neglect gear and perform well, when the server increased the power and availabbility of gear to be on par with what these casters could deliver, the cleric classes became an RP niche and something few people even bothered with because it was so dreadfully boring having to cast spells in order to achieve what others could without.

Obviously there are many factors to it, but im still looking for an argument that doesnt stem from some bias that is highly personal and im just dreading where this will end up in the future, there will be complaints about balance so long as two people are active on the server and one guy rolls 20 when another rolled a 1.

Yes FS have a lot of all the good stuff and lack some on other ends.. min maxed builds can certainly be RPed well, but they cant make up for lack of skill points when making said rolls in an event, poor selection of languages, freedom of memorization of spells and so on and so on.. I admire Calodan as well for how decided to go about his FS, he aint the first though ive known quite a few who did that.. and in terms of spell selection I did that on my bard as well, I have several spells that are worthless on average, but that one time every other month, I smile happily that I can apply it in a given scenario.

So what im reading here is people dont like that a class can solo a variety of bosses on the server.. so lets remove requiem, dragon shape, FS, gishes, all wands? I fail to see the constructive part of this that will move the server foward, instead I feel its being dumbed down and its not exactly motivating for me on a personal level.

And reducing a FS passive feat acquisition will just tempt people to multi class more and not adress the elephant in the room. Its not the DR that makes them able to solo these bosses.. its not the sheer amount of spells each level.. its the combination of all these factors.

I RCRed a five year old character yesterday, in to a Cleric/Silverstar/Heirophant/Thermaturge and went straight out and began killing a variety of bosses in mediocre gear just the same as my FS does, yes I lacked the EDM damage, so it took a bit longer. Was it harder? Not at all.

This FS debate is turning in to a lynch mob and I still dont see the viable argument for it.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I lost count of the amount of times a FS simply ruined events for everyone else. Group wiping to challenge the FS has become commonplace. I even had an event where the DM decided the power difference between my level 24 and an epic FS was too great and I had to wait for them to complete the quest. It's not fun. The proposed nerf would lower their offensive capability slightly but so long as they have the highest possible saves, excellent health, and amongst the highest AC this really won't ruin the class at all. They will still be the best of the best. People who are suggesting all other classes get buffed are asking for a lot more work. Like -ALOT-. It is far easier to merely nerf FS closer to other PowerBuilder such as bards.

On another note can QC please look at the spell Revenant? It feels too powerful for its tier. I asked before but got no response.

[mrm3ntalist]

How do you mean?

IMHO, Bards are just as powerful as FvS, just much more of a pain to level. RCR eliminates that, so what will people do? Show me a FvS that was claimed to be OP in a PvP setting, Ill show you a Bard with Mords and a dead FvS. Bards can also do the same boss soloing..

Yeap. Bards can solo many bosses as well. Some faster than FvS. Many other builds can as well.

Every day we get requests to nerf something, change something else, remove another etc. Whether we do any changes to FSs or not, that will still happen. I remember you were asking for druids to be nerfed ( Owls insight ) another was complaining about bards requiem, arakes now is asking for FS nerf...

This will keep on happening. Some are needed yes, but with time, people understand that nerfing is not the best way to go in most cases. Especially if it just means that you create another type of monster.

[Akroma666]

mrm3ntalist, you could always give more dispels to bosses? Like 1-3 spell breaches at random. That might make this whole thing a lot more balanced. Have to do bosses in teams?

[mrm3ntalist]

mrm3ntalist, you could always give more dispels to bosses? Like 1-3 spell breaches at random. That might make this whole thing a lot more balanced. Have to do bosses in teams?

Bosses do have breaches and mords. Unless you mean for them to spam them all the time. However there are counters to breaches and mords. Even my ranger can avoid mords.

[Ithilan]

So it is the soloing performances that is the cause for this?

So those of us who log in in the early european hours with an average og 5-10 people online should alter our chest runs to just not include bosses because that is the issue?

I dont get the rationalisation of this topic at all. You dont want people to have solo viable performances. So lets start destroying all the builds that can? The logic here is so flawed.

[Boddynock]

Requiem was selectively nerfed (for boss runs) by giving most of the server bosses some degree of sonic immunity.

To me here, the issue here has never been power, someone with a caster level of 30 in D&D should be phenomenally powerful. Again, the class of Favored Soul makes little sense. It is a poorly envisioned class, and has been from the beginning.

Does the class need some adjustments? Possibly. Should the intent of these change be purely mechanical? No, I don't think so. I understand that QCs role is not to act as the arbiters of lore and role-play, but rather game mechanics, and it is with that understanding in mind that I would argue that QC might not be the part of the team that needs to be on this.

There should be some specific role-play associated with any divinely fueled class. Clerics have it, druids have it, paladins have it, but FvS is allowed to sort of sidestep the issue. I call shenanigans on that.

TL;DR: I think having QC approach this from a purely mechanical point of view is the wrong way to go about changing this class, not that they are not capable of balancing it, but because it doesn't solve a number of other issues with the class.

[Akroma666]

What about putting a hard lockout on cross-classing FvS with Paladin/Blackguard? That will nurf the saves a bit and force them to get smite and proficiencies by other means? I'm just throwing ideas out there.. please let me know if its counter productive.