Possible QC change - Community input appreciated

[Akroma666]

So the problem it seems with the natural DR and the EDM.
Let's fix that and allow people to continue to play a popular class they love.
Remove the DR and leave it as a free feat, resrict FS from taking EDM. There, problem solved, no one gets super upset and its only a minor tweak. Charisma rp is still there. If we feel that isn't enough in another month or two, we revisit this discussion and perhaps lower saves and remove feats. I think that's totally fair.

[mrm3ntalist]

Why is EDM the problem?

[Karond]

Then, with this point, then it seems better to leave FS as CHA for spells (like sorcerer).

Why? It seems more logical to have it the other way around. Druid is spells and DC both on WIS. Their spontaneous counterpart, spirit-shaman, is spells on WIS and DC on CHA.

Cleric is spells and DC both on WIS. Their spontaneous counterpart would follow the above pattern with the original suggestion, spells on WIS, DC on CHA. To have it CHA only just seems off, and the spells on CHA, DC on WIS is odd as well in this pattern.

[Akroma666]

Why is EDM the problem?

IDK, that's what I was gathering? EDM is non-reducable flat damage bonus. It's basically power attack on steroids for a minute or 2 that you can use 8+ times a day. It's pretty amazing for fighter builds, but for FS, its just icing on the cake that makes them break through the "OP" barrier IMO.

[mrm3ntalist]

Why is EDM the problem?

IDK, that's what I was gathering? EDM is non-reducable flat damage bonus. It's basically power attack on steroids for a minute or 2 that you can use 8+ times a day. It's pretty amazing for fighter builds, but for FS, its just icing on the cake that makes them break through the "OP" barrier IMO.

Fighter builds with EDM are not even close to the power of FS. Obviously EDM on its own is not the issue. The issue is the synergies of FS with EDM that makes it very easy for FS to take. Those synergies are nerfed by changing the casting stats as per karond's suggestion.

By the way, a non EDM FS can solo the same content with an EDM one as easy.

[Ariella]

Its more the charisma synergy then EDM its self. I would still suggest changing the spell progression as well. It always seemed odd to me that it would have better then sorc and additional feats every few levels.

[Sokolsky]

I do not and never have played a Favored Soul, but from what I read in the source books, they're supposed to be powerful:

The favored soul follows the path of the cleric but is able to channel divine power with surprising ease. She is able to perform the same tasks as her fellow divine spellcasters but with virtually no study; to her, it comes naturally. Scholars wonder if favored souls have traces of outsider blood from unions, holy or unholy, centuries ago and generations
removed. Others suggest that divine training of the proper type awakens the ability, or that favored souls are simply imbued with their gifts by their gods when they begin the cleric’s path. In any case, favored souls cast their spells naturally, as much through force of personality as through study. Though this gives them extraordinary divine abilities no normal person could ever match, they see their gift as a call to action, and so in some ways may lag behind their more studious colleagues.

Also, according to the same source book, paladins and other lawful favored souls should be rare:

Divine magic is intuitive to a favored soul, not a matter of careful prayer. This intuitive nature leads to a freer interpretation of faith and doctrine, and so favored souls tend slightly toward chaos over law.

Maybe this calls for an application, rather than a nerf.

[grymhild]

this is a bit tongue-in-cheek snarky and off-topic

Hidden: show

Maybe I should RCR Ril from Cleric to Favored Soul

• over the past two years, it seems that a lot of people assumed that she was
• Since Eilistraee's favored weapon is a bastard sword, Ril would get exotic weapon proficiency for free, letting her use a bastard sword or katana which does make some sense, but not other swords.... and strangely even though Ril has no clue how to wield a normal battle axe, Eilistraee also teaches Ril how to properly handle a dwarven axe .. as well as fighting with kama and throwing strange metal disks called shuriken!
• her saving throws would be better
• she would get damage reduction! oh and elemental resistance!
• can't forget weapon focus and specialization!
• sure, I'd have to give up turn Undead and Turn Lycanthrope. :/ and her fancy (but mostly useless) moon blade diesel... oh but wait, I can just take five levels of cleric and get the moon blade back (though with reduced damage from 1d8+10 to 1d8+2... but since her normal sword is almost always better, not a big deal)
• I could lower that pesky Wisdom from 19 to 8 (which btw started for her as 14 at first level when I first started playing her), and raise her strength and Charisma from 14"s!!!
• and what's more, she could claim to be the highest authority of Eilistraee on the Sword Coast (oh wait... nevermind, as a High Priestess ie 20th level cleric with 25 ranks in Religion and 20 Ranks in history, add in her innate intelligence bonus (+2) and bardic lore (+3) (even without inspiration) she is 30/25 in those skills respectively (add in bardic inspiration, fox's cunning and greater heroism (which makes you more knowledgeable how exactly?) that raises her to 38/33 in those skills) she already knows what her goddess expects! oh and we shouldn't forget her ability to summon and chat with a Celestial Solar sent by The Dark Maiden at least once every day wtith Epic Gate (or if I'm RAW playing character sheet, every 30 (20?) min of real time. 5 hours of IG time, more if I also have her pray for normal Gate Spells which would be 5 more times)

:/

now I'm not sure what my point was....I think maybe I was trying to explain some of my frustration with how some things work on the server, and maybe with epic characters in general.

but really, this whole post probably belongs in another place. :/

oh, favored souls... right... so they weren't introduced as Forgotten Realms class, they were introduced in the 3.5 The Complete Divine splat book and sort of wiggled into the Realms.

I kinda think their class RP is ... I dunno... difficult? on a PW like BGTSCC. I mean it could be done, but I also think there should be more DM involvement in guidance, helping, supporting (and "policing" ) all divine RP.

if we are going to keep the class, I agree with the person who said that maybe rewording the class name and description and description might be a good idea. I also think that maybe we should lower the spells known to closer to bard or sorceror)

[Steve]

In order to keep with the OG implementation of the FS, as Charisma based, it also follows the Wizard/INT / Sorcerer/CHA by leaving Cleric/Wis / FS/CHA.

I understand that QC's job is to balance mechanics, and the DMs to balance RP. But the mechanical change of CHA to WIS also changes the RP, in the change proposed in the OP.

[Calodan]

Was thinking for a second. We just added a ton of new spells. There are quite a few of them divine and arcane that have a ton of RP value. I for one do not really advocate for lowering the FvS spells known because instead of taking useless DC check mechanical spells like before I selected those ones instead for RP value and such. If we lower the spells instead the answer for anyone who builds the class is to just take the most powerful mechanical spells and not use the new ones. I believe Karond already posted what a FvS spell list would look like with that change.

Now here comes the big question. What if we raised spells known for each class of same RP design to be more on par with FvS? I.E. Spirit Shaman, Sorcerer specifically. How does that effect the server's magical balance?

With that said as well the real issue in my mind is not FvS itself as much as the fact that pure melee classes in general can not compete with the magical classes in the first place. Like I have stated before Kory originally was not really intended to be a magic user divine, arcane or otherwise. I really saw him as a WM/DS/F but I found that class mix to be subpar in competing in anything on the server so like all others before me I RCR'D into a easier class to learn the server. I really think a lot could be fixed by finding a way to help pure melee classes to become far more relevant not only in PvM but also PvE.

Also I think this entire thread should be taken with a grain of salt as any change for this may be awhile down the road with bug fixing currently happening already. I do not believe this to be something that would suddenly happen or change overnight.

[Rhifox]

Now here comes the big question. What if we raised spells known for each class of same RP design to be more on par with FvS? I.E. Spirit Shaman, Sorcerer specifically. How does that effect the server's magical balance?

Shaman already has the same progression as FvS, in spells known and spells per day.

[Mallore]

Kinda mentioned this thought as a cheeky solution....


Favored soul, people's main issue reading every post basically comes down to damage out put. The DPS. Damage per second mind set. It's high damage pvp higher damage pve. It's the king of the roost and maybe rightly so.

Most modern games. Actually all that I can think of have had this problem with one class crushing another. World of Warcraft. guild wars even things like Destiny and that new awesomeness from blizzard. But all these games fix this issue by addressing damage.

They fix them with a single damage percent reduction


Why can this not be done with favored soul? Ten percent? Fifteen? I see the mechanics for percentage already in the game.

Perhaps not the easiest thing to script. But is it not doable?

Then no one has to fuss with stats, spell dcs attacks. Classes. Gear. Just have to find the right number to bring damage out put. DPS in line with everyone else. Or well close to it as possible.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Now here comes the big question. What if we raised spells known for each class of same RP design to be more on par with FvS? I.E. Spirit Shaman, Sorcerer specifically. How does that effect the server's magical balance?

That would create a ton of work. Instead of just simply nerfing FS they would have to buff like10 classes, rebalance a ton of PRC's, buff dozens of monsters, reevaluate equipment etc etc etc. The RCRing that FS would have to do if they were nerfed is a drop in the ocean compared to what all other classes would need to do with a massive change like that.

Things that can be adjusted -
Total spells
Spellcaster attributes
Class feats
Saves
HP
Skills
PRC/feat/multiclass restrictions
Class name/description
Application only class
Remove it

I would like to at least see a low save and a renaming of the class. Combine this with Karonds proposed wis/cha spellcaster split and now your cooking.

The next bit may be excessive.

The last change could be a drop to D6 HP (-60hp at lvl 30) combined with making the low save fortitude. Or decrease spell slots to be in line with sorcerers. The first idea makes them a glass canon caster with a tough shell. The second makes them a combat Gish that can't easily ward themselves without resting.

[Garn Greymoon]

Are we really complaining about feats? Weapon group, focus and specialization? Heck just about all classes get freebie feats...

I think balance wise I'm totally ok lowering 1 save to low since the genreal design of classes follow this methodology. Spells based off of a cha is a defining feature so would leave this as is. A name change...sure why not update the description and name. Also if you take away a feature add another to replace it.

[Flasmix]

Changing Divine Might to properly reflect it's 3.5 Pen and Paper counterpart would probably be just as good.

As per; http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/compl ... index.html

As a free action, spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to add your Charisma bonus to your weapon damage for 1 full round.

That's it, one round. None of this rounds = to Charisma Bonus crap. They had that in earlier 3.0 versions but nerfed it once they saw how OP it was. If we want to take more of a match pen and paper approach, that would fix a lot of the issues.