Possible QC change - Community input appreciated

[NegInfinity]

Everyone does!

Not really. When I tried FS I was bored to tears with it. Also, I really don't like that "listen to the song of my people" ritual most casting-heavy classes has to perform before doing anything.

In general I find it sad that threads "let's nerf this" or "let's nerf that" pop up from time, would be nice to hear more proposals that add instead of trying to take something away.

If the class is strong, then making it application-only would make sense. It would also require less work.

[Blackman D]

except app only does nothing really but requires DMs to constantly babysit every FS to make sure they are not doing something against their rp

and then there will be the claims of favoritism that go along with it and im sure none of the DMs want to deal with that headache

[Ithilan]

AC you should know quite well that despite the power FS has, many other builds can compete in soloing things around. I agree with most of your pvp analyzis but that is such a rare occurance I dont think it should dictate the changes.

What really gets to me in this discussion is people are argueing for FS deletion or nerfs based on the fact they can solo most content.. well suprise suprise, many builds can with the right setup.

I dont think there is a way to avoid incoming changes to FS, but just try and comprehend people that there are those out there who spend years on their concepts, their whole character identity will suffer a bit from mechanical changes if they are to overwhelming.

Im not a fan of the FS playstyle, even if I have done them quite a bit, I find it relatively boring as well.. even if effecient. I just have to second myself from many pages back now:

Dont nerf things for the wrong reasons. And I see a lot of spite towards the class here that just leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. Are we not all here to have fun? Is this class getting in the way of your fun by running around and soloing things in areas you are not in?

The RP arguments im seeing are absolutely redicueless, since when are we policing how everyone plays their class? Shall we start nitpicking on everyone who dips in to a class for a few levels Galatea? What about the myriad of fighters build out there with 3 rogue or bard levels for skill points and evasion witth expose weakness?

I dont get where this contempt comes from and from so many people as well. I had higher thoughts of the community to be honest :S

ill be RCRing my FS in to a power house of dimensions without breaking a sweat over it.. because that character to me was largely retired.. now she is deleted in my optic and I can understand if people are contemplating if this place truly is for them when they are met with this total neglect and respect of characters they spend so long developing.

Any ways, I know im not chipping in with anything useful and will just be overlooked. Im just shocked really.. bard nerf topic inbound Ohoy! Let the witch hunts begin.

[Garn Greymoon]

Alright now that i'm home and not typing on mobile here's some of my thoughts compiled together.

First of all I'd like to ask:

What does nerfing the class get you? It diminishes the fun people have currently - yes, does it make you feel better?

Gathering from the various comments, it's mostly a combination and synergy issue that leads to it being OP, but guess what...D&D 3.0 & 3.5 is for min maxers the way the system is set up and any class with the right combination will fall into this category.

I can have a 60 AB archers that shoots fireballs nonstop dealing 100's of damage per round while running all over the map, or that 20d6 sneak attack HIPS rogue, or that druid or fighter / dd that is pushing 70 AC.

If the dev team doesn't like the idea of a deity having "interest" in a player, then change the class description.

Changing any mechanics is detrimental to the health of the class. I would also like to point out that there's been too many nerfs from what I've seen to classes. I know for a fact that I'm interested in playing stormlord for the rp (well the lightning aspect of it tbh) and it's discouraging seeing how nerfed it is.

It is my opinion if you're going to axe a class and get rid of features from it, replace it with something else to substitute that change.

Also if we are talking about powergaming, which it seems that's the heart of the issue. Well I know it's a dangerous precedent but it's one that's already been set from reading some of the server rules, the direct example is: "no monk classes with druid".

If we are going with this route, it maybe wise to take a look at ALL class combinations then, but I would honestly imagine it would hurt the community and I certainly don't want that.

Anyways's if any of this comes out harsh, it's not meant to. I'm just rather passionate about a character I've come to greatly enjoy and with each time I login I see him grow and evolve.

[NegInfinity]

except app only does nothing really but requires DMs to constantly babysit every FS to make sure they are not doing something against their rp

In this case the only two options left are to leave things unchanged or just shut down the server.

Applications is the easiest option to implement that at the same time doesn't ruin anybody's class or character. It is already used for Red Wizards and (IIRC) Shadow Adepts. If it is impossible to handle applications, then it is pointless to talk about any other solution (casting progression, rebalncing, etc), because they will require even more effort.

I enjoy the server for the stories and believable characters.
Because of this I think that the whole "let's nerf this, nerf that, and rebalance this and rebalance that" is wrong path to take. Because this is not what made the server good to begin with. Attempts of mechanical rebalancing does not improve any of characters I might meet.

I have nothing else to say.

[Eclypticon]

I have tried to keep up with this thread, but its kind of like a bird shot burst right now out of a the end of a shot gun.

My opinion is changing a bit now, but not entirely. I will support the following changes:

Changing the description of FvS to make the RP satisfactory.

Restrict the class via application for all future toons.

Restrict cross classing with cleric and BG.

I think changing the class itself is a waste of time, and I cannot see a majority agreeing on how we should do that, but I could be wrong.

Otherwise, lets just pull the class all together.

[ValerieJean]

Changing the description of FvS to make the RP satisfactory.

Restrict the class via application for all future toons.

Restrict cross classing with cleric and BG.

I've been reading on this thread as I have thought about running an FvS now and again just to try a class i haven't played yet! But I am curious what is the purpose of restricting a class to Application only? I myself haven't seen a reason for it for FvS at least so far.

Also, what is the issue with the FvS dipping into cleric at all? As I understand the FvS is supposed to do what their god says no if ands or buts, so why would still following their god with the cleric class as well be of any issue? All I can see as a small possibility is the mechanical side to it because it lets them delve into EDM or some issue that keeps popping up in this post? But as I heard anyone can be a roflstomper in any class if they do it right.

To me a Cleric FvS still following their god as they should seems normal to me.

So all in all, what is the issue again?

[Grimcheese]

I've been reading on this thread as I have thought about running an FvS now and again just to try a class i haven't played yet! But I am curious what is the purpose of restricting a class to Application only? I myself haven't seen a reason for it for FvS at least so far.

Because of the "a god gave me all this cosmic power without the responsibility" concept a Favoured Soul has, it should require an application so that players don't just take it for mechanical power?

There's a lot of potential for Favoured Soul RP to be interesting but it seems more often than not, that potential isn't really explored.

Also, what is the issue with the FvS dipping into cleric at all? As I understand the FvS is supposed to do what their god says no if ands or buts, so why would still following their god with the cleric class as well be of any issue? All I can see as a small possibility is the mechanical side to it because it lets them delve into EDM or some issue that keeps popping up in this post? But as I heard anyone can be a roflstomper in any class if they do it right.

Domains and Turn Undead for EDM. Though I think Eclypticon also meant to add Paladins to the list, as they also get the Charisma bonus to saves and Turn Undead for EDM that BG has.


EDIT: edited because I was a rude jerk.

[ValerieJean]

Because of the super special snowflake "a god gave me all this cosmic power without the responsibility" concept a Favoured Soul has, it should require an application so that players don't just take it for mechanical power?

There's a lot of potential for Favoured Soul RP to be interesting but it seems more often than not, that potential isn't really explored.

Domains and Turn Undead for EDM. Though I think Eclypticon also meant to add Paladins to the list, as they also get the Charisma bonus to saves and Turn Undead for EDM that BG has.

Why not instead of application locking then again just change the RP of it. And then for the turning and EDM, again what is the issue with that if the character is following a deity. Why does it matter they can turn or use EDM. Besides basic mechanical reasoning.

As for the taking it for mechanical power as I have heard, that can be done with any class. It's just how you make it. So I haven't seen much of an issue.

It's like saying you can't have a Monk/Cleric because of the turning and EDM. So what's the difference again I ask?

Hopefully this isn't coming across as harsh as that is not my intent! I just really want to understand the reasoning behind nerfing a class that may not need it too much except to adjust a few writings of RP.

[Grimcheese]

I suppose with that logic we should also lobby for Red Wizards and Shadow Adepts to have the application requirements removed.

Just echoing the sentiments I'm feeling in this thread, so beyond my initial post I don't particularly mind what FvS gets or doesn't get in the end. There's a lot of approaches you can make to rebalance FvS (I think I've seen the class pretty radically redesigned in one PW, but I forgot which).

I guess "change the RP" is an easy thing to say but I don't know how the DMs are going to enforce that.

Clonks aren't really a problem because to get EDM, you need a good bit of Charisma, and that has to come from somewhere in a build whose synergies focus on Wisdom. Favoured Souls are a problem because their main casting stat is Charisma which synergizes nicely with Paladin/BG saves-to-CHA abilities, Turn Undead, and (E)DM, without the commitments and issues its relative counterpart, the Sorc/(BG/Pal) gish, gets trying to pull the same thing.

EDM is a symptom, but not the problem with FvS, anyway. It's the oodles and oodles of abilities and synergies they get that make them on par with the more powerful powerbuilds of the server with relatively minimal investment, combined with an RP concept that some may perceive as "Mary Sue".

[Blame The Rogue]

snowflake is such a derogatory term

i think each player feels their main character is unique. i feel that's probably what each player is going for

i think it says something, when the original qc that brought this up, has read this thread, the rp hatred, mechanical hatred, the player hatred...and have now posted they wish they never would have said anything at all. i don't even play a fs, and i find some of these posts offensive, and perplexing

i can understand disliking something. not favoring something. wanting something to be tweaked if necessary. but all of these toxic posts dripping with hate. hate is not good for anyone. it's not good for mental, emotional, physical well-being. it's most definitely not good for the server

i think there are plenty of posts stating responsible ways to tweak FS to bring it more in line with other classes and class combos. i think qc has what it needs to make an informed decision. i think they will do what they feel is best, without harming existing characters and without upsetting the players behind the characters too much

this is the last post i will make in this thread. this is the last post i will read in this thread

i'm goin to go in game. and relax. and smile. and adventure. and enjoy myself through my characters' eyes. that's why we're all here after all, to enjoy this server/game

[Grimcheese]

"Super special snowflake" was too harsh, derogatory, and hypocritical of me, so I apologize for that one and I'll redact it.

I don't like the bad feelings in this thread either, but even with my limited perspective I also understand that it's not an unjustified vitriol. The whole concept of the FvS relative to BG has been an elephant in the room for long enough that a thread like this was going to crop up sooner or later even if Karond hadn't opened it.

I also think the thread's run its course and I'll go back to playing. I'd say the ball is back in QC court now.

[Blackman D]

I also think the thread's run its course

yea it seems that way, 24 pages is a lot for one thing

i think it would be fair to say this one can get locked after people have a chance to make any last on topic relevant comments or new suggestions for consideration, most seem to just keep getting repeated after certain comments that they would help fix that particular issue

[Tantive]

Changes that least damage the community itself, would be my last thought in the matter.

[Moridin]

BTW: None of my posts were dripping with hatred for the class btw - I merely want to see it nerfed due to it's power. That does not mean I generally hate the class since the basic idea - divine sorceror is a good one.