Possible QC change - Community input appreciated

[Karond]

That to me is the issue with them, and why they are so common.

I don't think that's true. I find it far more probable that people love loot, and its the best class to get said loot. If people wanted builds that never died, or did the most damage, or grinded the fastest, then those would be more popular. In fact, the popularity argument might not even be entirely accurate. Looked at this topic?. Cleric is almost twice as popular as FS. Bards are more popular. Monks, Wizards and so on.

So really, what is behind the dislike for the FS? What exactly is it if not the point of looting?

I really hope it is not some misplaced vision for how the world really is. FS aren't running rampant (you could have the DMs chime in, but as someone who have seen what people play, I didn't see FS that often at all). FS aren't godly at everything they do, not even the build Mrm3ntalist forwarded. They excel at one thing above all; boss killing.

[arakes99]

Don't know. I am with Moltz at this point. At 287 responses this thread has clearly become bloated and I am rehashing points I made earlier and hearing the same arguments come back as ten pages ago.

I say we shut her down and let it be while QC discusses the feedback we already have.

[mrm3ntalist]

Why close the thread? It has been the most civil discussion I have seen on BG. A 20 page discussion not being locked because of flaming or trolling.

[arakes99]

lol you may be right there. I haven't really seen any new takes on the issue since about page 12 or so and while it may be a "civil" discussion it is clearly upsetting to some on both sides and I don't see a productive element to it any more.

[mrm3ntalist]

lol you may be right there. I haven't really seen any new takes on the issue since about page 12 or so and while it may be a "civil" discussion it is clearly upsetting to some on both sides and I don't see a productive element to it any more.

Didnt the latest build provide some numbers that even if every nerf that ahs been discussed here happens, FSs will still be at the same powerlevel? It will just change the way of building them. That was just a page before.

What i havent seen, is any argument whatsover that will prove that something good will come out of it.

[Karond]

If anyone is wondering, QC is doing a preliminary vote right now on whether to nerf/remove the class or not. If decided to nerf/remove, we'll discuss exactly how and what we'll propose to the HDMs who have final veto on everything

[arakes99]

You could do that same build with a cleric or FvS now. If it was so much better than the EDM build then I would already expect to see it, often. The damage doesn't bypass DR or Immunity. That's the difference and its a pretty huge one with how our content is implemented.

[Kauaiian]

Why close the thread? It has been the most civil discussion I have seen on BG. A 20 page discussion not being locked because of flaming or trolling.

This. I noticed a couple of days ago. Well done to everyone and it says a lot.

/endcheesiness

[mrm3ntalist]

You could do that same build with a cleric or FvS now. If it was so much better than the EDM build then I would already expect to see it, often. The damage doesn't bypass DR or Immunity. That's the difference and its a pretty huge one with how our content is implemented.

Most players go with what they can find. What they are told. Who knew that a dwarven Defender will cause so much issues to the DMs ( not know how to handle it mechanically ) and loot most all places.

About the damage. Yes you will lose 14divine damage for 14 rounds from EDM that bypasses DR but the damage output would be higher from STR that will be always on. There are still enough spells that give enough magic and divine damage to help bypass any DR if it is needed. If the EDM durations ends before the boss is killed and need to cast it again, then in that round you miss doing nothing that average damage drops for edm again.

[Akroma666]

Why close the thread? It has been the most civil discussion I have seen on BG. A 20 page discussion not being locked because of flaming or trolling.

The moderator team is pleased by this..

[Grimcheese]

Aelcar did make a point I feel should be emphasised:

It's just that I consider wanting to take something away from someone else without valid reasons a baffling attitude, even more so when this is one of the few classes which are NOOB-friendly and can hit top performance levels without much money or equipment.

Underlined section by me, which may explain some of the misgivings about Favoured Soul. It's a class that can perform in the top tier with minimal investment compared to other builds in that tier.

The class is very newbie-friendly, especially in BG. Favoured Soul has a nice balance of abilities and feats that help pad the room for someone new to the game, gives enough martial power (WF/S, DR) to still be workable even with poor investment in spells (which a new player is certain to do), and provides newbies an avenue to perform high-level content with not as much need for a bankroll and epic gear as other and more powerful builds would. I think Obsidian may have introduced it in the OC to give an "easy mode" for players new to the rules to get a feel without dying or feeling useless all the time, and likewise its popularity in BG may also be this. Basically, you have to work to make the class unviable; as in "Favoured Soul of Mystra who specializes in shurikens" unviable, which is still "meh, it still works".

Favoured Soul also lacks much in noticeable drawbacks. Gishes and bards work their builds around getting their protection and mitigating arcane spell failure, while Favoured Souls, and by extension divine casters, don't suffer as much; as long as they have the proficiency to wear the armour and shield they want to wear, they can wear and cast without problems. Other specialized builds usually have at least one weak save to need to pad or mitigate in some manner (even Karond's Dwarven Defender lacks in Reflex that he mitigates with Spellcraft+Evasion+high HP) while a Favoured Soul's saves are high across the board, reducing the need for mitigation, and making mitigation done anyway more effective. The only real weakness I see of FvS is their reliance on buffs--especially the round/level buffs--to be truly devastating, but duration is not as big a quibble as it would be on a cleric due to a Favoured Soul's spontaneous spellcasting mechanics potentially giving more room to refresh these spells should the need arise. And if you're in a tight spot and need to buff, there's always that Greater Sanctuary+Buff combo.

I agree that there are builds that do their roles better than a Favoured Soul. But mechanically, a Favoured Soul is a jack-of-all-trades done right, having the versatility to tackle a significant number of roles adequately, and is very friendly towards newbies or the mechanically inept to boot. But just because I described it that way doesn't really make it okay in BG's context.

Whatever arguments you can make that Favoured Soul is fine as-is and that there are worse builds to look at, I guarantee that if the class had not existed before and somebody tried to get it introduced today, it would either end with the proposal being rejected or the class downsized significantly before being passed. However way it's sliced, it seems that most of the arguments to not change the class boil down to inertia: It's been around for years, people have invested time, effort, and RP into their Favoured Souls, and that there are more powerful builds that do a Favoured Soul's job better...long story short, "It didn't hurt having the class exist up to now; it can't hurt to keep it as-is for a while to go yet".

Truth be told, inertia is an understandable argument, and like the "free doughnuts" issue Valve had when they introduced monetized game mods, nerfing or removing Favoured Souls would undoubtedly cause some grief, and you're already used to the grief you got for keeping it, and better the devil you know and all that.

Since QC has already said they're putting a poll on it, I'll shut up now, but those are my thoughts on the table.


/nickel

[Steve]

Throughout this thread, I've seen 2 topics: the mechanical aspect and the Role-play aspect, of the Favored Soul, be discussed (some may say attacked).

QC is supposed to discuss and recommend changes to mechanics. DMs are supposed to discuss and recommend changes to Role-play (when they deem in necessary).

The few QC members that have chimed in here seem to think—if I have it right—that either the Favored Soul should be left alone, be removed, or have a CHA-to-WIS change in order to weaken the most mechanically beneficial aspect of the FS: EDM + Saves + synergy with certain PrCs.

The few DMs that have chimed in seem to want to have the FS removed. But if memory serves, there was only 2 DMs to actually make statements, and that is hardly reflective of a DM Team decision.

In addition, and like I've mentioned before: changing CHA-to-WIS is a mechanical change that actually effects Role-play, in that we're supposed to RP our Sheet to the best of our abilities, and if you change the MAJOR Ability from one to another, you change the nature of the "beast," as they say.

Now if it is true that the Favored Soul is really just one of many Top Tier base Classes, and in itself not hardly taken by the general Player Base (in comparison to Bard or Druid, etc.), then is the need to NERF or change the FS because there is a real mechanical issue that disturbs the General Game/Vibe of the Server, for the Player Base? For the DMs?

If one is a Player that wishes to day in, day out, tour the Server and kill the same Bosses and do the same loot runs over and over and over and over and over for FUNability, then let the Players just do that, and leave FS and any other Class/PrC alone.

If Favored Soul builds are ACTUALLY ruining other People's RP, then maybe take this discussion out of the domain of QC and get the DMs to make a comment on the RP.

If the mechanics of a Favored Soul or any other Class/PrC is ruining it for the DMs, well...I've DM'd here plenty, and I surely know how to make any Class-combo get a challenge. And it wasn't like I was the most technically savvy DM anyway.

I've played a Favored Soul built about 3 times. Every time I played one, the Server and the CR/Areas was so unbelievable easy for the Class/combo, that I got bored in about 2 minutes. If other Players love the RP of the Favored Soul—which I think can be awesome if given a commitment, just like any other Class/PrC—then let that have it, as is.

A tough-as-nails hammer of a Class Favored Soul does nothing in particular to make Role-play any better than any other Class/PrC. If a Favored Soul build is too strong for the PvE content, and that somehow fundamentally ruins the Game for the general Player Base, then yes, let QC come up with the best decision on how to change the mechanics.

But whatever is chosen, if that route is taken, the DMs should decide if and how it also fundamentally changes the Role-play, as the QC-offered change would change the Character Sheet.

[Deathgrowl]

I think the point Aelcar made (and Grimcheese emphasised) about it being a "noob friendly" class is most certainly a valid one.

I also do think that it is a bit too powerful, however, but mainly as others have mentioned, because of the synergies it kind of encourages.

And while I do agree that QC shouldn't make any judgements based on RP (and we do try not to in our current poll), I think it is worth pointing out here that FS and Warlock are two classes that are mechanically "easy" to play and so people pick them for that reason. Which is fine. But this affects RP, because while they are mechanically "noob friendly", they are not so from an RP perspective. So the mechanics and RP are, in my view, related here.

And to be clear about that: I think the fact that FS (and warlock, and to some extent the druid) is so easy to succeed with mechanically, has detrimental effect on the RP of the server. Whether or not that is a balance issue, I don't know, though.

[arakes99]

For me, I think the issue that this class creates more than anything is that they look like Warriors, they feel like warriors, they are better than warriors in every conceivable way (unless you happen to be a dwarf).

So when someone logs in, and wants to RP a fighter, or a paladin, or a knight which are all equally at the bottom of the power stack but RP wise the easiest and what should be the most attractive class to new players from that standpoint. Instead, many people take FvS just to get a leg up without having to look like a giant tree for a couple months, Deal with people RPing about their singing, and all the other things one must deal with from an RP perspective to make a viable, newby friendly power build, while they level just to feel like there is some common footing here.

We might be able to balance this out other ways, but in its current incarnation the FvS will always make any kind of sword and shield character look and feel pathetic, there's no fixing this without addressing the elephant in the room first.

This is just my personal opinion, its not based on any fact, number, statistic or anything else of meaningful value and I am not a member of QC, I am just a scripter.

[Karond]

[QC still voting]