Suggestion: Avernus

[Charraj]

Why were the other epic vendors put in cities and made freely accessible, but this one was put in one of the most mechanically difficult areas of the server?

The vendor should be moved. These things should be accessible by everyone. Not just powerbuilds, casters, or players who have Boots of Etherealness.

I don't agree with putting any sort of restriction on who can access epic vendors. These vendors were meant to give available access to good items for all players. But instead, most players have to find a mechanically powerful character to carry them through this area, just to get to the vendor.

To be clear, I have a caster. I have Boots of Etherealness. I could get to the vendor solo. But why should I have easier access to this vendor than anyone else? It's not fair to those who can't get there by themselves.

[Charraj]

I'm reading over this thread again, and you know what?

I forgot how exhausting and overbearing player criticism can be. I feel like that's me in this thread, and I apologize.

When it comes to the concerns I expressed in this thread, I can be very rigid and stubborn about those issues. And I burned out pretty hard with my mentality. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

Other than the equal access concerns I have, I do think the server is a richer and better place for having Avernus in it, and I want to make that clear. The RP potential for Avernus is huge, and it's a beautiful area.

So props to the devs for all the content they're putting out, and the criticism they take from curmudgeons like me.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

No progress was made with collective agreement that couldn't be improved with a proper counter.

[mrm3ntalist]

We'll probably move the shop someplace else in respect to the outcry.

What outcry?

Most I have read are posts that erroneously say that it is impossible for non powerbuilds to get there. That is not true. It requires some effort and is a bit dangerous yes but the reward makes up for it.

Then I heard some comments about rp. Please tell me that good characters destroy Abe vamp regen weapon or any other evil item they find. Tell me that Paladins are not getting any gold from bosses. Why there weren't any complaints about tommy,s location and theme . Is it fine for good chars to buy stolen goods?

At most change the vendor to something else to satisfy some and save tfunke the headache. God forbid if the shop goes to an area Druids or orcs can't go... Then we will be all over this again.

Thinking about it, I think the no update period was fine. There was nothing to complain about and devs did not waste their time. Personally I lost faith in making this pw an interesting place that updates regularly and challenges the players. I think more campfires are what the server only needs.

However if the team seriously thinks about moving the vendor, what was said as a joke might be a good idea. Put the vendor on nexus and be done with it. Many spend their time there anyway...

[Steve]

M3nt, if your last post above isn't simply you waking up on the wrong side of the bed, then I have to say, maybe you should consider a small vacation.

Are you commenting in this thread as the QC Coordinator, or as a Player? Because, as I understand it, QC is about making sure things work and that mechanical issues are balanced on this Server. Yet, you seem to feel obliged to argue against Players issue with accessibility and Role-play. Which I would say are in a slightly different context than QC's purpose.

As a Player, you have just as much rights to argue against other Players for their issues with the Epic Shop, and/or Avernus. And if I have read your comments in this thread—and as I see the general commenting you make when Players have issues—is that if YOU can do it, in this case get to the Epic Shop using Boots of Etherealness or whatever, than others can do it as well, so STFU.

You disagree with the Role-play issues with the Epic Shop. You disagree with the IC/OOC issues of accessibility for All Players to this shop. You turn to snark in the end, which I imagine is done in your frustration when Players point out systems or implementations that do not work as well as they could.

And that is what I think is being discussed here: the Epic Shop was ideally installed in order to provide fair Item acquisition to the Entire Player Base. However, not the Entire Player Base has the same PCs, or many PCs, or Boots of Etherealness, or even the chance to Party up with 3+ Epic Level Toons, or the ability to RP with Merchant PCs in order to have them make up an excuse to go through the Hells in order to barter with a devil-blooded NPC.

The Epic Shop simply does not have to be this way...it could be better. What is better? Many in this thread have given suggestions, and it simply means there can be a process of adjustment.

And yes, the Epic Shop accessibility could be much better!! Is that such a strange concept? The Epic Shop could have been put in the Middle Dark, for example. Why not? A Middle Dark between the Surface and UD has been clamored for for YEARS. This is just another example where the Entire Community is trying to support making something better.

Look, like others have said recently, it can be difficult to read criticism. Complaints and criticism are two different things, mate. EDIT: I also realize many see the word "criticism," and they cringe, thinking in means always a negative response. SO, it is better stated as critique, which has a first definition that is better suited to the discussion: "...a detailed analysis and assessment of something."

Though I've said this hundreds of times before, I'll say it again: thank you to you and the entire QC group for giving time to work towards improving the experience of gameplay on this Server. As well, I've said this publicly and privately to tfunke, that he is a master of design and I seriously appreciate all that he has gifted BGTSCC. Many may not realize that I have had the great experience of working directly with tfunke, conceptually, on designing Areas for BGTSCC, in the past. And my respect for his abilities is great.

If you have lost faith, M3nt, then take a break, mate.

[Sierante]

So complimenting the amazing work put into the areas, and voicing an opinion in a polite and calm manner, is considered drama and outcry and just nuisance that warrants eye-rolling and patronizing replies. Testing the new content and giving feedback along with constructive criticism, again without complaining about the work and areas themselves, is not wanted. Well, alright then. It won't happen again. ;)

Cheers!

[tfunke]

So props to the devs for all the content they're putting out, and the criticism they take from curmudgeons like me.

It's alright Charraj, other than when you were a DM years ago, we haven't interacted too much, but I know your heart is the right place when it comes to the server, as with most people.
I've said it to a few people that have asked, but I am not taking this to heart. I realize it is unrealistic of me to expect everything I make to be well received by all and that's ok. Also, as stated above, without criticism, how can one know to improve?

Regarding this thread, the only thing that interests me particularly is changing the vendor to a different type of merchant, as I can honestly say I didn't really take into account Lawful Good characters and the conflict of interest having a devil merchant might be. I understand this now though and changing the vendor to a different race other than devil, would alleviate this easily enough. The plane of fire/air is next to Avernus, so those wouldn't be unrealistic options.

Finally, regarding the difficulty of spawns' high spot ability, I did this to reflect the fact that technically, Bel (the devil in charge of the Avernus layer of hell) knows when and where anyone or anything is in his domain. So perhaps think of it as him sending his minions to your location, as he knows where you are at all times. Just something to consider.

I'll get onto Maecius or one of the Forum moderators to start up a poll on this subject and see what the general consensus is. This may just be a case of a few speaking for the majority, so that should determine that.

[Tsidkenu]

Tfunke, change it from a devil appearance to an efreet. Problem solved

[mrm3ntalist]

M3nt, if your last post above isn't simply you waking up on the wrong side of the bed, then I have to say, maybe you should consider a small vacation.

Are you commenting in this thread as the QC Coordinator, or as a Player? Because, as I understand it, QC is about making sure things work and that mechanical issues are balanced on this Server. Yet, you seem to feel obliged to argue against Players issue with accessibility and Role-play. Which I would say are in a slightly different context than QC's purpose.

It shouldn't matter. My opinion carries the same weight as everyone else on public forums

As a Player, you have just as much rights to argue against other Players for their issues with the Epic Shop, and/or Avernus. And if I have read your comments in this thread—and as I see the general commenting you make when Players have issues—is that if YOU can do it, in this case get to the Epic Shop using Boots of Etherealness or whatever, than others can do it as well, so STFU.

That's the thing. Most said they can do it. Those who say they can't, they haven't even tried. I haven't told anyone to STFU... Ever. I could say more but this doesn't have to be about me and you

You disagree with the Role-play issues with the Epic Shop. You disagree with the IC/OOC issues of accessibility for All Players to this shop. You turn to snark in the end, which I imagine is done in your frustration when Players point out systems or implementations that do not work as well as they could.

Those implementations you talk about have nothing to do with me, not my thing. The only frustration is that something went in game that I like and is challenging for me and some want it changed

And that is what I think is being discussed here: the Epic Shop was ideally installed in order to provide fair Item acquisition to the Entire Player Base. However, not the Entire Player Base has the same PCs, or many PCs, or Boots of Etherealness, or even the chance to Party up with 3+ Epic Level Toons, or the ability to RP with Merchant PCs in order to have them make up an excuse to go through the Hells in order to barter with a devil-blooded NPC.

If they can't buy a potion or scroll of etherealness how can they afford to buy epic gear?

The Epic Shop simply does not have to be this way...it could be better. What is better? Many in this thread have given suggestions, and it simply means there can be a process of adjustment.

Better is a relative term. What you consider better it is not for me

And yes, the Epic Shop accessibility could be much better!! Is that such a strange concept? The Epic Shop could have been put in the Middle Dark, for example. Why not? A Middle Dark between the Surface and UD has been clamored for for YEARS. This is just another example where the Entire Community is trying to support making something better.

Again better is a relative term. Are you saying the entire community wants this change? I think not

Look, like others have said recently, it can be difficult to read criticism. Complaints and criticism are two different things, mate.

Isn't difficult at all for me

Though I've said this hundreds of times before, I'll say it again: thank you to you and the entire QC group for giving time to work towards improving the experience of gameplay on this Server. As well, I've said this publicly and privately to tfunke, that he is a master of design and I seriously appreciate all that he has gifted BGTSCC. Many may not realize that I have had the great experience of working directly with tfunke, conceptually, on designing Areas for BGTSCC, in the past. And my respect for his abilities is great.

I don't think anyone can say the slightest thing about tfunke

If you have lost faith, M3nt, then take a break, mate.

I lost faith in the community as a whole. The few players remaining that challenge them selves instead of complaining all the time is why I don't need a break. If they leave like the others, then I will consider one

[Rhifox]

Tfunke, change it from a devil appearance to an efreet. Problem solved

I don't think changing it from a cruel and self-serving lawful evil outsider to another cruel and self-serving lawful evil outsider would fix the problem.


Edit: On the topic though, I don't really see much reason for it to be moved, myself. Players can adapt, work around the challenge and make something of it. I've seen at least two auction threads now of people reselling goods bought from the vendor. Enterprising traders will always provide solutions to any problem that exists in market accessibility.

[mrm3ntalist]

So complimenting the amazing work put into the areas, and voicing an opinion in a polite and calm manner, is considered drama and outcry and just nuisance that warrants eye-rolling and patronizing replies. Testing the new content and giving feedback along with constructive criticism, again without complaining about the work and areas themselves, is not wanted. Well, alright then. It won't happen again.

Cheers!

Please, what was your feedback at your first post again? You said it yourself you haven't tried it when you made that post. So there wasn't much feedback to give. I ll leave the drama comments to you

[Kauaiian]

Some prefer the mechanical challenge with RP as a second.

Others prefer the RP with mechanics as secondary.

The rest fall somewhere in between.

What this server has done admirably in the last few years is attempt to find a balance between all of those thats suitable to all play styles. From what Maecius and Tfunke have posted, they're willing to do so again, even if it's something as simple as the merchant race.

At least there is consideration from the Staff which is all I originally wanted from this post. I'm more than likely not alone when I say, "Thank you."

[Sierante]

So complimenting the amazing work put into the areas, and voicing an opinion in a polite and calm manner, is considered drama and outcry and just nuisance that warrants eye-rolling and patronizing replies. Testing the new content and giving feedback along with constructive criticism, again without complaining about the work and areas themselves, is not wanted. Well, alright then. It won't happen again. ;)

Cheers!

Please, what was your feedback at your first post again? You said it yourself you haven't tried it when you made that post. So there wasn't much feedback to give. I ll leave the drama comments to you :D

In my first post I simply agreed with an opinion about the general concept, that I had heard/read from others, that's quite right. Then I went and tested it myself, and still held the same view. I admitted that it wasn't impossible, nowhere have I said that, but just suggested to alter the power level required somehow. I suggested more puzzles and mazes and riddles rather than powerful monsters. That's it. I realize now the error of my ways, so yes! Why not don the feathered hat, let the cape flap majestically in the wind and make a grand exit worthy of drama! :D

Seriously, if most everyone is having fun, go for it. Just wish people could be a little more polite all around, even if opinions aren't shared. :)

[Steve]

I lost faith in the community as a whole. The few players remaining that challenge them selves instead of complaining all the time is why I don't need a break.

This strikes me as elitist thinking. And, that you cannot find separation between critique and complaint.

I hope I am wrong in that assessment.

[mrm3ntalist]

Seriously, if most everyone is having fun, go for it. Just wish people could be a little more polite all around, even if opinions aren't shared.

I can only agree with that

This strikes me as elitist thinking. And, that you cannot find separation between critique and complaint.

I havent been called elitist yet... i guess now is the time to add this to the long list of adjectives i have been called

Yes steve, saying an area is too difficult without even trying is not critisism. It is unfounded complaint.

Lately there have been three updates.
- The first Epic shop: A lot of complaints/critisism
- The removal of the level restriction of items: A lot of complaints/critisism
- Avernus and the Epic shop: A lot of complaints and critisism.

One had the designer of the shop to tell me he wont bother again, while the others had long discussion and i hope no developer is going to be put off. The common thing every change had is that there were complaints/critisism. Without even trying it, or giving it some time there were/are requests for changes. To me that tells me, that many are predestined to complain/criticise without trying something or giving it some time to see how it turns out.

No matter what you call me, you cannot deny that this is the truth. This thread and the other ones prove this.