Legion of Doom - Evil Think Tank

[Tekill]

I really want to play an evil character- and so I am going to give it a try, again.
This will actually be my second try at being evil on this server.
My first evil character (Kro) eventually converted to neutrality. Kro is an opportunist, willing to lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead.
But what I discovered with Kro was that to get ahead all one needs to do is simply be- not evil.
Kro disguised his naked ambition and greed, by faking an interest in the good of society. Doing this made him powerful connections, and allowed him to infiltrate into powerful organizations. He eventually got to a position where he could start manipulating people to his advantage. But by that time, he actually already accomplished most of his goals without being naughty at all. He got rich, became a leader (more like a high ranking member) of a powerful faction, and acquired lots of loot. He did not do one evil deed other than pretend to be neutral/good. Eventually he realized there was no real purpose in being evil at all.
I changed Kro's alignment myself, because: A) there was no incentives or opportunities in being evil, B) there was no punishment for not playing his 'NE' alignment. C) and there was just too much to gain from being at least neutral.
Now, putting aside all arguments regarding game mechanics and server rules, it is much easier to be Good or Neutral than it is to be Evil, because all the goodies have to do is basically, not be evil. The game is made for heroes- thee is no shortage of good deeds.
Being evil, you need to be inventive, you have to think outside the box.
And, the added downside of being evil is you get alienated from everyone for being evil, which means nobody wants you around, during the next DM event.

So, I am looking for suggestions on two things to strengthen the foundation of Evil on BGTSCC.
1)I am looking for ways us evil players can become better organized- I know we don’t work well with others but - We need to unionize! We need to form a Legion of Doom. Unite the evil factions or something. Find an Unfriendly Arms Inn to meet up at, maybe. Any ideas, questions, concerns, issues on how we can do this?

2)What kind of evil deeds can we can do as individual players, as factions, or as Legion of Doom?
What are some ideas for plots and schemes available based on they way the game system is now?
What evil can we accomplish without the DM's involvement?
Maybe we can get volunteer's to be victims? Any other ideas?
Should we deal with question #1) first before dealing with question #2)?

The benefits of more/better evil:
-We would have strength in numbers so we can get away with more – with the extra back up, I can finally walk around with my skeleton once in awhile!
-DM's see the interest in evilness and get interested themselves. More DM events for the Dark Side.
-We would be giving the Good Guys a real reason to get up in the morning.

Think about it - the evil that exists in the Real world is putting us evil do-ers in our little world to absolute shame. They are vastly more organized and commit every kind of wickedness you can think of.

We are capable of much more. We need to step up our game. What do you think, do we need some evil love?

[Kiran]

Heya!

Interesting topic.

There are already a lot of evil organisations out there, I am already part of 2 that I know of, I am sure many hidden..

But again they are not like walking around with skeletons and vampires by their side.. I mean, we would be hunted down if we did that in the main cities...

And you hit the spot, evil people dont trust evil people, why? cos.. you know, we are evil. Reason we work together is either fear of the other, respect, some sense of weird loyalty and a common goal.

Currently I work closely with 2 other evil people... reason for one of them, they are powerful and I want to gain some of that power, the other, she has information I require, I in turn can get information that she can't get as she is not liked in that certain area.

But truth be told, takes a while to build a trust between evil chars for the very reason, we are bad people, we wouldnt be sat in a tavern rping how our day was, it would be about getting revenge on imagined slights, our enemies or whatever our crazy/evil chars think.

It comes down in the end to "what kind of evil am I?" And then find similiar people, plenty of interesting guilds/people out there already for it.

[Maecius]

I always think it's a good idea to organize players for roleplay!

Just a few thoughts drawn from my long experience here:

1) Find a good location. Make sure it's someplace that even if it becomes a "known" den of iniquity, the good guys won't be able to just lay siege to it.

Darkhold was obviously designed with this sort of all-around protection intended for it, and you may want to work with the Zhentarim PCs to see if they'd not be interested in hosting a "legion of doom" type alliance at their fortress? Other options might include working closely with Underdark PCs and the cross-surface/Underdark guilds like the Cult of the Dragon, or even founding your own temple or fort somewhere well protected.

The "wolf in sheep's clothing" route is only really good for solo evil RP and infiltration-focused evil RP, as it doesn't create a cohesive group identity for the "evil" PCs involved unless they meet together in evil focus groups outside of their infiltrations (which is how the Thieves Guild has traditionally handled the dichotomy of pretending to be a good guy out in public but being a bad guy behind closed doors).

2) Don't focus on PVP.

A lot of evil groups tend to try to act primarily in opposition to other players instead of the game world and its NPCs. While player-to-player conflict will always have its place, making this a focus is usually a mistake, in my opinion, because it means that the DMs are frequently unable to support you (as they try to avoid taking sides as much as they can) and it more often creates a lot of angst and drama instead of character development, which tends to detract from the fun factor. Instead, I'd focus on things like infiltration, personal or organizational greed (for wealth or power or both), and betrayal, and working with the DMs to generate plots that the other players can deal with as later DM events. In essence, try to create RP for people (both your fellow villains and everyone else).

When PVP does become a focus for one plot or another, work with the other team as much as you can to ensure that the RP is as fun for everyone as it can be, and try not to box them into a corner that they can't RP out of ("permadeath" scenarios, etc.). The Red Wizards have historically shown a lot of character here, going out of their way to not ruin other peoples's characters with their own Thayan wickedness, and drawing back from plots if they realize the other party's not having anymore fun.

3) Generate fun things to do for your group.

People like doing things that break their normal routines (campfire chats, grinding, etc.), and guild leaders are charged with a serious task: Finding things for them to do. A lot of stuff can be done player side to generate a sense of community, to recruit new evil allies, to establish character growth and storyline. Even little tasks and missions can really make a character's purpose feel meaningful, and player events and get-togethers can generate RP for several people for several days in the lead up and aftermath.

You can always make requests of the DM team as well, but with 75/75 people on right now and probably fewer than 2-4 of them being DMs, you probably can't always count on the stretched-thin DM team to be the ones who always give you your sense of in-character purpose. Let DM support and DM events be the spice that makes things lively, but don't make it a "must have" ingredient to your evil cake recipe.

4) Coordinate OOCly. This post is a good step in that direction. Evil PCs aren't always going to take kindly to the touchy-feely "let's all be friends" mentality that the good PCs are so fond of. So they need a less lovey dovey reason to bind together. Organizational strength in numbers, protection from good guys (and other bad guys), and the ability to increase personal wealth, rank, and status all help draw bad guys in. It's why organized crime is more powerful than the pickpocket in the shopping mall.

But you have to make sure everyone's on the same page OOC before you can really bring a group like this together IC. At least in an convenient and timely fashion. Because a lot of evil characters are just like your first evil character was -- even in real life. They look like good guys most of the time. Or at least neutrals. And it's often hard to tell them apart from the good guys unless they're wearing spiky black armor or out-and-out force choking someone in the board room.

[Steve]

You might enjoy reading this:

http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=45383

[AlwaysSummer Day]

One of the most common mantra I hear is " everyone plays a good guy". I can't help but cringe when I here it. According to any statistics I have been able to compile evil actually outnumbers good. The confusion occurs because neutral sides with good. As you pointed out it is often most beneficial for them to. I cannot count the number of time "baddies" threatened to kill one of my neutral characters or at least insulted them. Then they wonder why they are outnumbered. The reason I mention any of this is that not all bad guys need to be horrendously bad. Think of Lex Luther for instance. He is often portrayed running charities, engaging in cordial conversations, and even helping the injured after an attack. He just happens to be using the charity to launder money, establishing contacts for future plans, and turning public opinion in his favor while making Superman look like an arse. He is often considered one of the all time greatest bad guys in comics and the man generally doesn't even have any powers!

On the other hand I have heard "goodies" complain that they can only be reactionary which is just totally incorrect.

Oh and when it does come to PvP remember first and foremost that your opponent put just as much time into their build and RP as you did. Nobody likes to see hundreds of hours of work ripped to shreds by a totally uncontrollable force such as another player or a few unlucky dice rolls. I generally avoid it unless I intend to lose or if I feel it won't end in significant RP changes. That way it avoids most of the drama. My 2 cents.

[Tekill]

Good replies so far - thanks for the link Steve - good stuff.

If/when we try to organize the evil side more - there will be infighting - no doubt. Hopefully it will make for good RP. In fact a wise one, would prepare for it.

Someone sent me a private message - and they suggested taking the Legion of Doom thing more literally. An actual Legion of Doom umprella organization of the evil factions- a super gang....CAAAN YOU DIG IT!
We could get all the gangs...er, I mean factions together, maybe even the UD ones.
I think that could be a lot of f'n fun!

This was my reply to that person:
One idea could be to have a couple respresentatives (they dont have to be the same reps each time ) from each faction show up for meetings to plot/scheme/plan stuff. The LoD could cook up some schemes- that could be backed by the factions. The representatives of the factions all try to agreen on the schemes - with their factions interests in mind.
We would have to plan the schemes ooc first - then RP it.
I ooc would encourange in fighting and back stabbing- we could do stuff like all beef's get setted by a duel.
The real point of it is to gather enough numbers so that - we can be a bit more openly evil. Not be afraid of being outnumbered by goodies. To be able to get into parties of evil pc's instead of pretending to be good just so you can find a group to grind giants..heh.
You know what screw it Im going to post this message on the thead.

[Moltrazahn]

[mrm3ntalist]

It seems to me you mix playing evil with inflitration. From what I read and without knowing kro it looks like you didn't play an evil character.

Anyway good luck with your new concepts

[chad878262]

"without evil there can be no good, so it must be good to be evil sometimes!" - The South Park Movie (or Augustine if you prefer! )

Your first Character actually does sound very much like a well played Neutral Evil Character, not sure you should have ever changed the alignment... You weren't being good for the sake of being good and motivation matters! Eventually an opportunity may have arisen where you could have brought about the downfall of a superior to take over your faction, and if your PC would have done so then he was still NE, not Neutral. Being "good" because it helps you get ahead does not make you good or neutral on the alignment scale, it makes you pragmatic which can more easily be attributed to evil (Since NE is the ultimate pragmatist, won't necessarily go out of his way to do evil, just has no moral compass when it comes to attaining his wants and desires)

In any case, plenty of good advice given for your next evil character, but I just thought I would drop a line as your first character sounds NE to a tee.

[kkrazlite]

Well only advice i can give to you is brain storming is one thing. Its like making something you want to share with the world. Brain storming and making up the concepts and themes are definitely top priority BUT actually throwing the concept out there and working with it on the scene is another.

I'd say why not just get it going man you have nothing to lose and you have an idea of how to make it work. Best to represent it in both the OOC and IC stand point and let the other's who are interested show their support in both sides of the game as well.

Good luck!

[Tekill]

I made a reply to this already but it was rolled back. It was so amazing it caused the whole forum to crash.
Yeah, Kro was evil to start- he pretended he was nuetral then actually became nuetral.
I can see how one would think he may not have played NE to begin with. His alignment was a slow conversion of Evil to Nuetral - What really sold it was, the really good RPing of those around him than influenced him to be non evil. It was cool because I did not plan it - it just happened.
Anywhooo...I brought him up as an example to illustrate a point that evil players on the surface - are not getting the opportunities to be evil, or not immersed in evillness enough, or at least not exposed to it enough - we needed to work together more IC and OOC - and think of cool new ways to be evil.
I thinks there has been some great replies so far one big point being - evil can be really subtle - insidious even.
I myself tend to RP with more action.
I will follow your tip kkrazlite - plan my evilness OOC, then plot it out in game - and RP out and then see what happens.
In the meantime I will need to be patient and bide my time.
But here is a question - how does one play CE as a main character on this server (on the surface)?
Very carefully would be the short answer.....

[Steve]

One thing to work with is that all the Server Areas north of the BG Farmlands are "lawless" lands, except for the Areas of towns and villages that most likely have local laws and maybe even guards to enforce it.

This gives Evil-minded Characters plenty of space to stretch and to enact their deeds. If they so wish to act outside the boundaries, so to speak.

But if Evil-minded and wanting to rot the goodness from within, taking action within civilization and the factions that desire to uphold security, economy and holiness, then...you will most likely need to play the devious being.

Playing Chaotic Evil does not have to mean playing Chaotic Stupid. Chaotic can simply mean that a Character does not abide by laws, and the Evil part could be they have little to no respect for the lives of other sentient beings. CE does not need to be RP'd as a Mad Hatter with a bloody knife on qualudes.

I have been meaning to write out the more known Evil orgs that might interest your RP and your Character. They are different with different goals, and do have difficulty working with each other both IC and OOC, but hey, maybe you're exactly the right Player with the right Toon that can influence more collaboration!?

The Zhentarim
Thayan Enclave
Church of Umberlee (Water Queen's House)
Church of Shar
Cult of the Dragon
Sodality of Dominion
Shadow Druids
Cult of Malar
Hellstorm Crew
Coven of Darkness
and some Thieves Guild members

I'll tell you what though: there are simply not enough Players to go around to make any one of these Guilds/Factions really shine, at the moment, in terms of influence to the World of this Server. I think any of these Guilds would warmly embrace a new Player to add to the RP, and probably much more viable than trying to win their respect IC and OOC in order to agree to any kind of Legion.

[Moridin]

Well there is also any Underdark faction as they are all evil.
Bregan Daerthe(open group)
School of Necromancy(Necromancy-focused wizards and gishes)
7th Circle(open group)
Qu'ellar Sshamath(Drow followers of Lolth and Selvetarm only)
Qu'ellar Zau'afin(Drow followers of Lolth and Selvetarm)(Tanarukks and orcs are indentured servants)
Qu'ellar Dev'lin(Drow followers of Lolth and Selvetarm only)
Cult of Ghaunadaur(no contact with them personally, think it's Drow followers of Ghaunadaur only)

[Xanfyrst]

As I wrote before the forum went wacko; the server has before been in two situations where the evil organisations had a common agreement. Unified, if you want. First time happened way before most of you joined. I believe Flasmix, BMD and Maecius are the only ones who might recall that time. Player-inactivity ended up killing this if I recall it right.

Second time was 4 years ago when the major powers of Team Evil were -this- close to get something going. One of the groups chickened out though... and sadly it was one of the more important ones for the plan to work. Bastards.

Anyway, an unified front for Team Evil must always happen organically as each group must have a selfish reason to join up. I'm not talking about a common goal here as that part is pretty obvious.

And lastly... who says this kind of "group" isn't already in existence? Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If they exist and you had no clue, it may be that they do not wish you to know. Evil characters are picky who they trust with even the smallest of things.

[kkrazlite]

The style of evil is not the problem its just the numbers advantage and the setting itself. Alot of people know me for my "Openly Evil" toons and collection of evilness in general. ((In fact in the current time i'm playing on right now!)) I'd say that people just think when someone says "I want to play an Openly Evil toon." It means one day one you'll be crip walking with your 3 undead minions down the block of BG. ((Also who ever did that. SWAG! )) Iv'e also played all the different styles of evil as well. While they come with their bonuses and consequences all can be fun and exciting depending on your plot, role play, and schemes to get what you want done weather that be a step towards taking over the world, raising that undead army you dreamed about, stealing the crown from the duke himself, or maybe just keeping it small and being a standard bandit robbing people on the roads.

Here ill break down all the different styles ive played (Please note these are simply my personal experiences with the play-styles):

Standard Low Priority Hidden Evil: ((Example Character: Lo')) :

So in this style its all about being stealthy and low key. What i did with this was highway robbery, and stealing in general. Lo' for example was a bandit she would usually hang around places with high traffic of caravan's and travelers going back and forth from place to place BUT she would plan out her encounters strategically and away from patrol point of guards and mecenaries. Alot of the time she would stop people at sling point and demand an object of value from them. Now usually what alot of people would think would happen is the person or PEOPLE would refuse and try to be hero's. But usually if you find the right players they would stay in character and simply hand something over and be on their way. Other times yes you will get into a PVP conflict but it doesn't always have to end in the brutal sense people make it up to be. Alot of the time if Lo' Paralzed someone especially if someone else is in the area or spotted the fighting she would leave them there to be rescued in order to escape with the little amount of reward she could bare before more spectators and or heros who assist the victim. Other times if she was outnumbered she may throw a few pot shots and lay down a few traps just to keep them off her trail ((A.K.A Flee the Scene.))

(( I specifically like the hidden sneaky sneaky style of play because it leaves you room to mess around with idea's and natural benefits such as infiltration, disguising, information leaks, ((Which i loved to do Ask Rose Vexale about that <3)) And all sorts of stuff your mind can think of behind the shadows!))

High Priority Openly Evil: ((Example Character: Zeno Zelot))

Now this is the more tricky side of an evil character. This is the guy who is not afraid to show his guns and power, not only that he rolls with that crew of undead or his trusty balor when he is in those dangerous area's or even walking down a non law regulated location. The thing people find the most difficult about this style is the problem everyone else speaks about. "If people start to pick up on your deeds you'd better be ready to have some sort of solution to back up your actions!" Now there are many ways to play this style of evil without the need for the obvious route of engaging in PVP.
The first and most obvious being well. . . Try intimidation! Your a guy walking down the road with not only a horde of undead but maybe even a balor, Not only that but anyone who saw these things at your disposal would know you must be some form of powerful (Even if your not). Use this to your advantage and try to tempt people from getting in your way with sheer scare factor! Trust me it works! "Sometimes" As long as the Player your facing doesn't mind rolling a will check or cowering away in general.
The Second option would be to comprise! An example of this is imagine a senerio where a very powerful lich was attacking the realm, you the mildly powerful necromancer have it in you sight but so does your rival! That mildly powerful holy paladin of lathander on a few feet away! Now you know in your head that the lich is way to powerful to take on alone, but you also know that the paladin can't do it either but you both want it dead for different reasons! Maybe the paladin wants to finally destroy the lich once and for all because its defending it phactory! Maybe you want the phactory for a future scheme of your own! BUT! that scheme would be less of a imminent problem for the Paladin in that current situation. Compromising your power for the greater good could be beneficial to you in certain situations if your a well known powerful necromancer or that evil tyrant warlord everyone shuns.

(( The benefits towards playing this style is the sheer value of playing it! There are senerio's where those evil toons are needed even for those goodie two shoes who hate your guts. Not only that but you would be surprised what kind of secret organizations and people reach out to you if you have a name for yourself around the region. ))

The last and final style and my favorite version!

Opportunistic Evil! ((Example Character: Aeb'el ))

The name speaks for itself slightly. This type of evil is like the mid-way point of evil toons. This is the character that doesn't mind people knowing he is evil for example raising a dead or two for experimentation or using your feat to turn into all different types of creatures ((Even evil ones!)) In situations that would be beneficial towards you. Now yes this does not mean your traveling around BG as a night walker or strutting through FAI with your crew of mind flayers. But this does mean that your re-known towards being evil is still there although the goodies do not see you as an imminent threat sense your deeds of corruption and evil are in lawless land and or does not effect them specifically or even purhaps your deeds that are benefiting you such as taking the souls of local Malarites who are inhabiting the area slaying all kinds of animal and people, your both beneficial to yourself and to the goodies in doing so, which would keep "Most" of them natural against your actions.

((The Benefit of this is quite obvious. It allows you to have a kind of half and half of open and Hidden Evil play. Yes some people will know you do evil deeds, but just how far are you willing to go? Maybe the goodies would let you in on their expedition on slaying that shadow dragon because you are on their side. But what they don't know is you look to capture the dragon instead with a device you had constructed when their not looking! And use it for your own plans in the future! ! ! It gives you some breathing room with careful planning on both spectrums but does indeed limit you on just how much you can lean on either side.))