Legion of Doom - Evil Think Tank

[Steve]

We have to retrain the server for evil to start to thrive and be a viable RP avenue for other players as well.

@ Calodan: do you believe this is possible? Do you believe that it is possible for Players to conceive of their Characters a beings within a Storyline, in which their PC role, their Character may live, or, may die? Do you think Players can learn to see their Characters—these expressions of self in which so much energy, time and RP is invested—are not more-or-less immortal, and...that it is the experience of the Campaign, the Storyline, the Module—one that is supported and often told via a Dungeon Master—is more important than Continual Existence?

I'm not just asking this rhetorically, because I am truly interested what you think, since it appears you tried to make an effort once to influence RP from one side of the fence, but felt more or less burned by the outcome. It is just another example of why Evil-minded RP can disappoint on BGTSCC.

As a Player, I would personally sacrifice any of my Characters to a Storyline that was meant to serve as an influential, environment changing campaign. Not exactly a direct sacrifice, but more to put my Character and the RP on the line, at the mercy of the Dice—and a DC that I hopefully had an influence on via my Character's RP—and let either the continued existence or the premature death, be meaningful.

But maybe that simply is not possible on BGTSCC. THAT which I've hoped for by RPing the Evil-minded is only possible in a more personal environment, like a PnP game. And that though BGTSCC promotes RP and a standard of "Players built for it and the DMs support it," it would be better for the paradigm to shift to "DMs tell the Story and Players create a Character specifically for that Story, and not more."

Then at least the Player could be certain of purpose to their RP, beyond just the art-for-art's-sake aspect.

Gee...don't I sound like a Debbie Downer!!??

[mrm3ntalist]

Went through this thread quickly, since everything seems like i have read it before. From what i read, the main issues for evil according to some established players are:
- The DMs ( how the include evil in the metaplot, not enough attention to evil guilds, not enough chance to allow evil to "shape" the world etc )
- The players with "good" characters

Without commenting further, is there anything else?

PS: I only have one wish D.

[Calodan]

@ Calodan: do you believe this is possible? Do you believe that it is possible for Players to conceive of their Characters a beings within a Storyline, in which their PC role, their Character may live, or, may die? Do you think Players can learn to see their Characters—these expressions of self in which so much energy, time and RP is invested—are not more-or-less immortal, and...that it is the experience of the Campaign, the Storyline, the Module—one that is supported and often told via a Dungeon Master—is more important than Continual Existence?

I'm not just asking this rhetorically, because I am truly interested what you think, since it appears you tried to make an effort once to influence RP from one side of the fence, but felt more or less burned by the outcome. It is just another example of why Evil-minded RP can disappoint on BGTSCC.

As a Player, I would personally sacrifice any of my Characters to a Storyline that was meant to serve as an influential, environment changing campaign. Not exactly a direct sacrifice, but more to put my Character and the RP on the line, at the mercy of the Dice—and a DC that I hopefully had an influence on via my Character's RP—and let either the continued existence or the premature death, be meaningful.

But maybe that simply is not possible on BGTSCC. THAT which I've hoped for by RPing the Evil-minded is only possible in a more personal environment, like a PnP game. And that though BGTSCC promotes RP and a standard of "Players built for it and the DMs support it," it would be better for the paradigm to shift to "DMs tell the Story and Players create a Character specifically for that Story, and not more."

Then at least the Player could be certain of purpose to their RP, beyond just the art-for-art's-sake aspect.

Gee...don't I sound like a Debbie Downer!!??

I think it would be hard for sure. This server does mainly cater to the hero archetype more than any other. A place of fairytales where good always wins really. Which is nice and all but it gets boring day after day knowing the outcome.

I also think that what you speak of is what we as players really need. A story where it is not guaranteed. That is where the mystery, intrigue and other factors that really ignite our creativity are created is in the world of uncertainty.

I do think it is incredibly difficult to let a PC that has been fleshed out go though too. Some get comfortable with them. Then there are others where it may just be time for an end. They are stuck with the PC. So they either retire it or rarely play it. Also incredibly hard if the only 30 you got for hitting up epic dungeons and or surviving a Wagner event.... For me I think I only play Kory at this point because he is all I got for a 30 and I like my spear build. I do have a new one I am looking to play just need to end Kory. For some PCs no other end but a glorious death will do. Kory is one of those. I guess it is really up to me when he dies but I prefer it to be a mystery. I have had chances. I did not take them. It felt forced when you volunteer. If it is assumed then the mystery can be retained again hearkening back to my words previous about this making the story alive and a place where we as humans really thrive in creativity (and or boneheaded moves to our deaths.....)

I am not saying that dying mechanically while leveling up or grinding should be assumed like a HARDCORP character on Diablo or something. I just think that PvE should definitely have that assumed risk. It should always be assumed that dying in the DM events has real and lasting consequence. Maybe I am coming around to this notion. I do think it is up to the DM to tell the story and we become the characters within it. I am great with that. What I want is the possibility if me dying but also since I can die the possibility of actually thwarting plans. I have felt that some events are RIGGED. AKA a certain monster is actually immune to all damage just to move the story along. Or I have actually beaten said ambush because I treated it like one from the start and I was prepared but then was told no dice we need the story to continue with the NPC alive.... I guess what I am saying is that all of us need to work on this. DMs as well. They need to have the creativity as well to adjust when we succeed greatly and prevent their plans. I truly think the problem is systemic. We need to treat all the parts in order to get the infection out. I guess what I am saying is that both players and DMs need to be willing to lose. This would open up a new realm. It creates that which I think we deeply need in story telling.

For the record I am not bashing anyone. If anything I need the work most on my attitude. Just trying to offer a real criticism of what I think is happening and how we can fix it. Just my opinion and really if you feel offended by it I truly apologize. I have no intentions to hurt people's feelings just saying it how I see it.

[Montleberry]

As long as the goal is to undo the RP achievements or disrupt the events of the other side the same cycle of burnout and disagreement I think will go on, lead to the same OOC unhappiness and frustrations. I think a lot of the issues in this thread come down to motivations.

If the goal of the Legion is to create more RP between players of evil characters and RP for players of good and neutral characters to be participants in with players of evil characters then I can see how it could be successful. If the goal is to give the players of evil characters a stronger had at intrigue and conflict RP against the good side it probably will work out the same as other attempts have. I tend to think even conflict RP need to be somewhat collaborative to succeed. There is no point telling a story no one is interested in listening too.

As a few people mentioned the barn maybe that makes a good example. If a player of an evil character wants to burn it down because they are really a character who would be RP interested in destroying a random single barn in the farmlands and the player wants to use something that got done and invest a similar amount RP and effort into undoing it to generate more RP then that sounds great. A small one off RP event can go on to create more RP for all. I can see a request like that being supported by a DM and would be excited to see it happen.

If a player of an evil character is some Archmage Dark Lord of Such and Such who asks themselves if their character really would be interested in burning some random barn down and the honest answer is no, but they saw it in a DM shout and want to be allowed to undo it simply to undermine and undo something a player who character happens to have a different alignment and feel the effort involved doesn't need to be similar to that which went into getting it done in the first place, but think a DM should agree to let them just show up, toss a torch in and move on then I think the motivation is off, can see why a DM wouldn't be interested in supporting it.

It didn't take a Str check of 5 to do it really after all. It took making a PM request to the DM team outlining and idea I had to generate some RP for others that fit that character I was playing. Waiting three months to get one to have the time and be good enough to agree. I assume it got agreed to as it was fairly simple, intended to spread the RP out to more than just the person suggesting it, was one off and easy to do without having much chance of being something controversial for the DM to deal with. The IG RP went on for a few weeks of getting people he knew invited. Using RP with characters he knew to find characters to RP with he never met who had needed skills. It took more than half off all the gold player of the character who got it going had in total. It took RP to get done, and creating RP for others was the motivation. Sure evil players showing up in the middle of it trying to disrupt it may have gotten chased off by the Fist, but those looking to put on a show of being charitable for appearances, or happen to think free ale and food is worth pushing a few post of wood up or any other reason they were looking to participate that fit their RP would have been more than welcome.

If an evil player wants to undo it to create even more RP and invest a similar level of effort to undo it that went into doing it, then it sounds great and a DM supporting it makes sense. If the goal is to just show up with a torch to burn it down with minimal effort to showcase an evil characters evilness by undoing something seen in a DM shout because a player who happens to have a character with a different alignment got it done then I can see why a DM wouldn't want to support it and the motivation behind it seems to lead to many of the problems and frustrations that happen.

Being glad for the successes of and then building on the RP of others and creating RP for them to participate in seems like the right way to go - good or evil. Focusing on simply stomping out things people with other alignments get done doesn't seem a recipe for enjoyable RP with fun outcomes.

[Steve]

- The DMs ( how the include evil in the metaplot, not enough attention to evil guilds, not enough chance to allow evil to "shape" the world etc )

It's about partnerships, between Players and DMs. Nothing short of trust between the two, and a willingness to generate a storyline together—DM initiated, Player show-up-and-dedicates-time—will succeed.

I could put it to you one way: as DM Novus, I dedicated the majority of my actual IG DMing to the Whistling Wanderess. Sure, some may say it was unfair of me, but I wanted to focus my attentions on deep involvement of a storyline, and in this case, one initiated by Valefort, but given to me as DM to further, AND, incorporate as many Player Requests into it as possible (hello Lawful Evil Assassin coming to terms with their past; hello Hoihe gets to have real Elf blood; hello having to make deep, Character trait challenging decisions which have long, Character influencing results).

My point is that this type of attention, type of attention to detail, type of long-term investment which both comes from the Players/Guilds/moral initiation and then is "run with" by the DM for the long term / as long as possible. It is not such a grand idea, but damn, what a grand experience it could be!!

And I can only sit at this screen and hope and wish that something could be brought to the Table for the Evil-minded (I'd even be willing to create a special character with high level of development in a DM was willing or saw it necessary to start this Campaign from scratch).

- The players with "good" characters

You're great with numbers, M3nt, so help me review:

Zhentarim = 2 active Players
Red Wizards - 2.5 active Players
Church of Umberlee = 1 active Player
Cult of the Dragon = 2 (?) active Players
Hellstorm Crew = 1 active player
etc etc

Compare those numbers to the groups of Good-minded Characters, thus Players, of this Server.

For either an individual Player of Evil, or any one Guild, or even if a Legion of Doom was created, if the Players on the opposite side of the fence mobilized against Evil, the result would be a lopsided counter action guaranteeing failure on the side of the Evils.

I'm not saying this is wrong on a basic level—it simply is what it is. Players of Evil seem to be incapable of putting their PCs and their actions at too much risk, because they can be so easily beat down, disrespected and overcome at every opportunity. The Players of Good not only don't lose, they seem to never even consider the option of losing. The latter being an OOC aspect that haunts the Balance of the Server, imho.

Furthermore, Players of Good can simply disregard Players of Evil. Because Evil PCs have little to no power. Hell, even Evil NPCs seem to be fundamentally incapable of doing any harm or real Evil upon the Sword Coast, so that does not inspire. Not at all.

I still believe Players of the Goods and the Evils can work together, if they really want to. But as Calodan and I have been discussing here in this thread, let's all ask ourselves if we can play to a Storyline—the exact thing that has brought us to this D&D world—and consider THAT the point to our RP, instead of looking to one-up each other.

[mrm3ntalist]

You're great with numbers, M3nt, so help me review:

Zhentarim = 2 active Players
Red Wizards - 2.5 active Players
Church of Umberlee = 1 active Player
Cult of the Dragon = 2 (?) active Players
Hellstorm Crew = 1 active player
etc etc

Compare those numbers to the groups of Good-minded Characters, thus Players, of this Server.

For either an individual Player of Evil, or any one Guild, or even if a Legion of Doom was created, if the Players on the opposite side of the fence mobilized against Evil, the result would be a lopsided counter action guaranteeing failure on the side of the Evils.

This is something that i thought about as well. I can see how the difference in numbers might increase the difficulty for the evil side, however i think it is manageable.

Having said that, there is no way to prove this other than doing it ( which i thought about it as well ). Unfortunately, even I cant be arsed to do something unless there is a fun factor for me.

I still believe Players of the Goods and the Evils can work together, if they really want to. But as Calodan and I have been discussing here in this thread, let's all ask ourselves if we can play to a Storyline—the exact thing that has brought us to this D&D world—and consider THAT the point to our RP, instead of looking to one-up each other.

I do believe that this would help a lot. However, i dont think it is required for the evil players to get things done.

[chad878262]

recently a player discussed creating a Lawful Evil Helmite which I thought was a fantastic idea. You could also consider this with a god like Hoar or other deities where some of the ideals, taken to far could lead to corruption of that ideal. Like Jack Baur from '24' doing some truly evil things (mostly, but not always to evil people) in order to stop a perceived greater evil from occurring. RP like this could be great fun, but even this type of RP takes some cooperation internally within whatever good/neutral group/guild the evil character would be a part of. Since the Helmite Paladin's player would have to cooperate with the evil characters player and RP something other than instant PvP when the evil character threatens violence against a peasant who is too frightened to talk about some group of bandits harassing the town for fear of retribution from said bandits... Could be great RP, but again, requires actual desire from both parties to cooperate OOC'ly even when IC'ly the two characters might have reason to be at odds.

This becomes even more difficult when you have entire guilds of 'good/neutral PC's' vs. 1 or 2 baddies. Players can't help, but feel ganged up on or bullied in to submission. In a PnP game the DM would probably want to ensure the group of players created characters that were somewhat feasible to work together, but that doesn't mean one or two wouldn't be of opposing alignments, just that the players are forced to agree to backstories that allow them to group up in the context of the campaign. This (or any) PW is a bit different in that there are multiple concurrent campaigns/story's going concurrently and when two or more are at odds it becomes near impossible for DM's to support fairly without things degenerating in to full on pvp.

[kkrazlite]

But see there is an overlaying problem here in general. This being that the DM's specifically SPECIFICALLY tell you that unless you have a group is interested in going through with a certain type of RP for the meta-plot or even some side plot, your rp is already on the black-sheet list of "Things to do later (Maybe.)" The DM's say that they look to support role play for more then one or two people but instead support it for a group so that a collaboration of people are involved or can get involved. But you see the problem with this is "Evil Mind PC" are a needle in a haystack compared to the clump "Good" hay around them on this server. And the ones that are on the server who are evil are not walking about as a group burning down barn's and creating chaos in the world because they do not have a group of any kind to do so. But the overall average of evil can't support a group like Doron Amar, The Phoenix Company etc etc can. And if they did it would be a shark tank if anything else because as everyone in this thread said, all evil minded PC have all different alternatives for making the world burn and they want their alternatives more then they want to help the other evil with their alternative. And this is the natural way of things of course.

But the main problem stands that DM's will only support a group effort for changing or altering the world be it in he meta-plot or not. And this is something that is already a direct DIRECT railroad for evil minded individuals because of the sheer numbers difference in the server not only that but the overlay after overlay of differences each evil PC has towards the other. This makes group play for Evil PC's non existent which makes the DM's give them non existent plots because it is in not a group effort when from a numbers perspective it cannot be in the first place UNLESS something like this very topic of this thread were to just pop up in the server and SOMEHOW *Clears throat* SOMEHOW! ! ! All the different evil "Chairman" all came to an agreement.

[chad878262]

In my (admittedly limited) experience DM's will still support the more personal/individual player requests if the requesting player is patient, willing to invest in the desired RP plot and willing to TRY to involve other players. Even if you end up with events with only 2 or 3 players or even you alone, so long as you make the effort DM's will support you. Sometimes it is beneficial to OOC'ly shoot a PM to players and ask if they know someone. Specifics aren't necessary, but if you just start OOC'ly then make an IC post about how you might recruit others... just a thought.

[Xanfyrst]

So... Eliphas for President of the United Factions of Evil?

"Eliphas 2016! Why choose the Lesser Evil?"

[Steve]

I do have 1 suggestion that may jump start something greater, at a later date:

Those Players that want to start a Legion of Doom type thang, I say pick a place—Winding Way Tavern, Blushing Mermaid, The Swordarm Inn (Roaringshore)—and bring a newish Character there, on a regular basis. If the vibe between Players is good, these new-ish Characters may grow a IG mindset of Legion, then...the more established Characters of Evil representing different Factions/Guilds, might find reason to get involved.

It takes a bit of OOC need and common ground, to start something that is long lasting—most of the Good-aligned Guilds were started formed by a vibe between the Players, sometimes Players coming en masse from another Server.

If one starts a new-ish Character, and one out side established ideologies, then there is little to lose in the prospect building part of such a Legion. Then, when the vibe is established, those Players can find reason to bring their more established Characters to the table.

I only say this as a suggestion because the point has been made many times both IC and OOC that our Character's RP just simply doesn't allow for a Legion to exist, unless each of these individualist Character Egos are satisfied, or manipulated into, going along with the Plan. And yes, that is to a large extent the truth of it.

But playing Evil-minded should also be fun. And to fun, or to learn if it fun, some have to give it a try. And also, I believe those Players that play good-aligned Characters could actually let these low level Evil types develop for a time, without making it your Characters God Driven Mission to stomp them out of existence post haste.

Let the Evil simmer and ferment, for a while. Maybe a Storyline will develop out of it, and many will be able to bring their PCs to the Story, for some enjoyment.

Kinda my last 2 cents here, on this subject. So if any do start it up, give me a shout. I'd be interested (and into it, if my timezone also lends to the campaign). Cheers.

[Montleberry]

I very much agree with Steve's comment that letting the evil players have a tiny bit of space to get going would be best from players of good characters.

Sure, if you see a wizard with a zombie in tow in the Cloakwood you can run over to the campfire to send an army of paladins and good clerics after them. Do you have to or should you even? I tend to think no - could your character really cross all of the Cloakwood and be at the Friendly fast enough to get help before the wizard would have realistically have had time to move on? The distance is not actually 30 seconds of jogging away. It might not hurt even if your RP dictates that is what you would do to still go a little slower at it to give them time to take some sort of action that lets them have a chance to get away and enjoy their RP before it is forced into RP of being overwhelmed by level 30 paladins who are mostly there because their players were board at the campfire and want to RP anything good without consideration of the other player. Maybe send RP signals before you go that you spotted them and are off to call help. They aren't wandering the Gate with a zombie they are in the woods. Armies of paladins showing up in the forest moments later from what should be miles away is the sort of thing I can see not making much RP sense to the evil player and leaving them frustrated. If you character wouldn't confront them themselves, generating RP between you, then why the need to find high level character to immediately prevent them using their evil abilities anywhere? (Full admission that in my early days here I was one of the people running off into the wood to go get the necromancer. I like to think my approach has matured and changed as I have spent time here.)

I think it goes back to the motivation difference between looking to RP with characters of differing alignments versus the more OOC motivation to make sure your good character gets their way by stomping out the RP efforts of others.

I also think more focus on driving their own goals and plots rather then showing up to interrupt events or halt/undo story lines of the players of good characters is going to end up a better approach for players of evil characters.

We are here to have fun RPing together not to ensure only the RP we are putting forward succeeds...right?

[Kagger911]

Went through this thread quickly, since everything seems like i have read it before. From what i read, the main issues for evil according to some established players are:
- The DMs ( how the include evil in the metaplot, not enough attention to evil guilds, not enough chance to allow evil to "shape" the world etc )
- The players with "good" characters

Without commenting further, is there anything else?

PS: I only have one wish D.

I will give credit where credit is due. The Dm that put us in the meta plot to assist magmire, due to making half of the dead crows thralls. We killed the shaman that were in the "spirit" realm. Making a prophet of the white hand consume them. Then it started getting really hard for all of us to be on at the same time and the plan kinda idled [...]

[ Moderator Edit: Forum rule #3 violations removed. ]

[Sokolsky]

Zhentarim = 2 active Players
Red Wizards - 2.5 active Players
Church of Umberlee = 1 active Player
Cult of the Dragon = 2 (?) active Players
Hellstorm Crew = 1 active player
etc etc

There's a couple of players here that want to play evil. So agree on a faction, create new characters together and make one of the evil factions big enough to have an influence.

[Steve]

There's a couple of players here that want to play evil. So agree on a faction, create new characters together and make one of the evil factions big enough to have an influence.

Already have an answer for you:

Knights of the Shield

- The Knights of the Shield, a secretive group of nobility and merchants, aims unknown, are active in this important free port. Baldurian Knights include the silk-and-spice merchant Kestor (NE human male) and the adventurer Tuth (NE human male).

I recently asked the DM Team if they'd consider making this a NPC-led faction, or at least, have an NPC available for which PCs could receive orders, ask questions, get help, etc.. A direct, IC means of interacting with the DM Team. But it didn't hook....

So that means YOU PLAYERS NEED TO DO WHAT THE DMs DON'T WANT TO DO!!! lol.

If that ain't a poke, then I don't know what is!