Amplify and Clairaudience

[Theodore01]

Please add that to the custom changes or the wiki.
And all the other changes/fixes/nerfs to spells and feats lately.

Ki-step, Onehander, Light Blindness, ........

[mrm3ntalist]

Please add that to the custom changes or the wiki.
And all the other changes/fixes/nerfs to spells and feats lately.

Ki-step, Onehander, Light Blindness, ........

Its not that we dont want to do it. It takes time. It is also a kind of task that is boring. Any volunteers?

[Valefort]

Aren't the static bonuses given by items instead of spells that don't last long (on wands anyway) actually advantaging detectors rather than sneakers ?

I mean if there are +4 spot/listen items for most slots now the skill cap of 50 can be reached anyway so ...

The drawback of this change for detectors is having to switch more gear than they used to so it can be an issue in PvP but otherwise not.

As for the wiki I'll try to add/edit pages.

[mrm3ntalist]

Aren't the static bonuses given by items instead of spells that don't last long (on wands anyway) actually advantaging detectors rather than sneakers ?

That is true

I mean if there are +4 spot/listen items for most slots now the skill cap of 50 can be reached anyway so ...

It can. The spells/wands just make it super easy. The concern was not to make an undetectable sneal. The numbers dont support that and that is why we went through with this change.

The drawback of this change for detectors is having to switch more gear than they used to so it can be an issue in PvP but otherwise not.

PvP is a complicated side of this change, since there are many different things that come into play. Glad to discuss this with you in pms but i have no desire to do so in the public forum.

As for the wiki I'll try to add/edit pages.

Thanks for all the help Valefort

[chad878262]

The drawback of this change for detectors is having to switch more gear than they used to so it can be an issue in PvP but otherwise not

Funny thing... Sneaks have always had to switch gear around... Sneak gear has the disadvantage of (in the past) not having any options for gaining high AC. There were no +4 dodge/natural/deflection AC items that also gave +3 or higher stealth, while their have always been some options for +4 AC items that grant +4 detection. I would say detectors being required to make a choice between higher detection and other bonuses simply evens the playing field for sneaks that always have had to do the same. Especially when you consider the detector can use wards/buffs while the sneak cannot, since using wards makes true sight cut through stealth and area transitions will always OOC'ly oust the sneak. Especially in PvP (whether combat or simply RP spying oriented) the spotter will always have the upper hand OOC'ly because unless the sneak marks the spotter hostile they do not get a d20 roll added to hide/ms while the spotter in detect mode always get's a d20 roll.

Like so many other things it just works better if folks work together OOC'ly to create a fun story instead of trying to 'beat each other'. Unfortunately that is rarely how such things go in practice.

[Valefort]

Most detectors already had to change their gear too you know, I hunted detection gear for years before my hiatus because amplify + c&c were not enough to detect sneakers with any certainty.

Only druids/shamans or high CL bards didn't need to switch gear, now druids/shamans/rangers probably don't need to do it but bards have to. I don't think it evens the playing field much as all the other builds needed to switch gear already.

Regarding PvP combat the sneakers can use all the shiny wards they want since transition is not an issue. Spying is different but the changes mentioned here don't affect that at all as the detectors will just switch their gear and cast less spells to get the same detection scores they used to have.

So what does this achieve except people buying the latest detection gear instead of using wands ? Nothing that I can see, except it likely costs more gold. So overall nothing to make a big fuss about but not exactly good in any way that I can see.

[Flasmix]

Another big reason for the change is the lack of spells that can raise hide and move silently. As it stands, there's a huge advantage for detectors.

Let's pretend that amplify and c&c worked as they did before.

Go ahead and list the spells that give a bonus just to move silently and not listen as well. I.e. Greater heroism.

[Valefort]

I'm not disputing the fact that detectors have an edge, if anything the problem is even worse than it was since these bonuses can be obtained through gear instead of spells now

Also for hide/ms there is Pass Without a Trace, cat's grace, camouflage(hide only), spiderskin(hide only), shadowform (assassin only but not sure if already in ?) and greater heroism.

[Flasmix]

I suggested that camouflage doesn't stack with spider skin as the hide bonus is for the same thing. Don't know if it'll get added

[chad878262]

Also for hide/ms there is Pass Without a Trace, cat's grace, camouflage(hide only), spiderskin(hide only), shadowform (assassin only but not sure if already in ?)

only Pass without a trace adds to MS and it is a lesser bonus in comparison to Amplify at +20. This is why amplify was decreased to +10 and no longer stacks w/ C&C. heroism spells cancel each other out as do the stat increase spells since they are available on both sides, for the most part. shadowform is specific to assassin and cleric of helm would have a specific spell to cancel out that bonus. spiderskin is an equalizer w/ bonus to hide which Flasmix commented on previously.

[flipside43]

Amplify is also a spell for one class, bard. I understand the need to nerf amplify wands, for those solid 5 rounds of 30 listen with C/C but completely gutting a bard only spell instead of C/C seems to only favor mage detectors.

Plus that will save makes it impossible to sneak and detect at the same time.

Something like +1/2CL max 10 would nerf the wands considerably and not make a spell utterly useless (as of right now there's no reason to have C/C with Amplify).

[chad878262]

(as of right now there's no reason to have C/C with Amplify).

working as intended...they no longer stack.

C/C doesn't really benefit bard anyway without stacking listen, they don't have spot as a class skill, after all. So I guess that fee's up a level 3 spell slot to pick something more useful?

seriously, in pnp C/C doesn't give any bonus to spot/listen...it is a short distance scrying spell. Being able to gain a bonus of 30 to listen was a bit ridiculous... Especially when Pass without a trace adds 4 (maybe 6?) to move silently... 30...to 6... yeah. Even taking away stacking it was 20 to 6, which is why it's now 10 and far more reasonable (while still favoring the bard/wand user)

[flipside43]

seriously, in pnp C/C doesn't give any bonus to spot/listen...it is a short distance scrying spell.

I normally do not give this argument much weight this isn't PnP. That's a whole other arguement though so i'll leave it at that.

What I see has happened is that instead of finding a way to have both spells functioning in a reasonable way, one spell associated with one class is now effectively useless and it's being handwaved as an overall nerf when the second spell is basically untouched (sure pick spot or listen but that's not nearly as detrimental) which effects mage spotters (their only inconvenience is now amplify wands).

I see the builders always adding so much content but here is a backslide as it's actually reducing what is available.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against reducing their effectiveness, what I am against is making amplify (or C/C) effectively completely useless while effecting one class basically (apart from wands).

[chad878262]

Sorry flipside, maybe I am not clearly understanding your argument point... To clarify the way C&C and Amplify will work when implemented as approved in QC:

C&C: provides +10 to spot or listen to the caster, but will not stack with amplify (caster can gain +10 to his/her choice of spot or listen).

Amplify: provides +10 to listen, will not stack with C&C (nerf from +20).

How is either spell completely useless? They are both useful, C&C as a 3rd level spell has the benefit of giving a bonus to one or the other while amplify, a 1st level spell is listen only. (spot is more beneficial mechanically due to feint and disguise along with stealth so this makes some sense IMO).

Amplify is Bard only, of course (besides wand users), but Bards do not have spot as a class skill so they can just skip taking C&C for the most part as level 3 has many decent spells to choose from. C&C works for everyone else and basically casters can decide if they want to use an amplify wand or if they would prefer to be self-sufficient (or have invested in spot) and cast C&C.

So again, I'm not sure where your comment about being against making C&C or Amplify effectively completely useless is coming from? They are both useful, but are no longer useful together.

Edit: trying not to use words like argument, complaint, or anything else that could be misconstrued...wasn't trying to say flipside was being argumentative, merely meant to indicate I did not fully understand where he was coming from so changed 'argument' to 'point'

[flipside43]

My point was the changes are reducing the depth of the bard spellbook and not affecting the mages spellbook what so ever. Instead of reducing for example amplify to 5 and c/c to 5, which would give both spells function, now there is no point in selecting both. Such a change would also affect the mage detectors out there as well.

I understand your point in saying select another spell instead of c/c but I am arguing that the changes are unnecessarily reducing the function of a spell. From a class perspective it is useless as it's no longer functioning in any meaningful way and reducing the depth of the bardic spellbook. The changes are reducing what is functionally available.