Amplify and Clairaudience

[AlwaysSummer Day]

The problem is with hide/ms is it functions on a all in or nothing setup. If your opponent cannot see you you win. If they can see you you might as well not have it. This is a terrible mechanic as it forces spot/listen into the same issue. If you are a level 30 sober fighter who dumps all points into spot gg, you will never see a hipster. Roll a druid and gg you see them all.

Adjusting numbers only moves the façade of balance left or right.

[Mallore]

but detectors have it way easier.

Agreed!

Was merely saying that no matter how you slice it spot/listen can always be high enough to detect and we have done tests where over certain thresholds stealth bugs out. I am not a coder/programmer/hacker to know the 127 / - 127 Akroma mentions, but Snarfy has posted before how a low level PC spotted his max level/maxed out gear sneak. In addition, without flagging hostile the stealth PC doesn't get a d20 roll while the spotter in active search mode does. I was merely stating in regards to the post about the 107 hide roll that going to high can cause unforeseen issues, I honestly have no idea what the 'hard limit' is, but I have been told it's somewhere in the low-mid 80's... that might very well be incorrect, but high 70's - low 80's is usually good enough in pve and I have never been able to get higher without buffing, which I generally don't do to avoid certain mobs from seeing through my stealth.

As someone who plays as a rogue... I have learned the following, given the numbers will be about +/- 5%


Casters at 30, casts 100% of the time successfully.
Fighter at 30, generally hits (most it attacks)) 100% of the time,
Rogue at 30, gets spotted 50% of the time.

Rogue at 30 in a dungeon. bring a tank or wizard you work well because you cant solo. (for the most part)

Mage or fighter in RP, Here is a pile of buffs so you can catch that rogue. Instead of saying, Bring a rogue to your rp! =P

Does this not seam odd and out of balance?






That there is only one group of classes that actually can not reach their potential in its only given character trait because of feelz? And then the kicker is this.. a Caster with MS/Hide is better then the class that is suppose to be able to do sneaking because all they need is Invisibility to spy with.

If they are going to Nerf Stealth so badly, why not put See Invisible on a stick for 10 gold and 50 charges. =P

I get it, getting spied on sucks.. but its the world of magic and sword. its going to happen. make a rogue friend to protect your secret. =P

Sorry but the advantage shouldnt be in the spotters favor.

Anyways off topic, but this should be re examined.

[Flasmix]

Nobody is nerfing stealth, it's a nerf to the detectors. What are you talking about?

[mrm3ntalist]

The problem is with hide/ms is it functions on a all in or nothing setup. If your opponent cannot see you you win. If they can see you you might as well not have it. This is a terrible mechanic as it forces spot/listen into the same issue. If you are a level 30 sober fighter who dumps all points into spot gg, you will never see a hipster. Roll a druid and gg you see them all.

Adjusting numbers only moves the façade of balance left or right.

Even the fighter who dumps all points into spot it can detect any sneak if thats what he wants. Of course, in order to detect a sneak who invests heavily in hiding ( which results in low AC/Saves/HP ) the same way the fighter needs to invest more in detection and sacrifice something in other areas. If you expect to have the fighter getting full bonuses on HP/Saves/AC/AB/Damage AND being able to detect every sneak, that is not going to happen. Sacrifices need to be made on both sides.

Anyway undetectable sneaks are an urban legend. It mostly has to do with knowledge of the mechanics. I ll quote a post from the QC forums

And has someone crunched the numbers with this to assure that a fully dedicated spotter still has the ability to detect a fully dedicated stealther if conditions are right? Stealth is a very powerful class ability, particularly for roleplay, so it's important not to allow it to be an ability that can be used with impunity/without fear of reprisal at level 30.

There are many ways to detect a sneaker. To put it simply we made it too easy and that is why players go after grandfathered sneak items like crazy.

The first of course is active detection. Spot vs Hide, Listen vs MS. The mechanics work in favor of the detector so are the spells. The basics are like this: a character with just 33Listen ( no items ) has a chance to detect a sneak with 52MS just from the opposing 1d20 rolls ( just has toremember to activate the detection mode ). Especially when in RP scenario where the sneak has to be hidden for a long time, just one low roll and the sneak is detected.

The more detect items/spells you add after that, the more you can detect. What makes it more easier are spells such as amplify and C&C which give a massive bonus. The problem with those massive bonuses is not just that there isnt anything similar on the sneaks but it makes it possible to reach the +50 skill bonus cap. When that cap is reached the detector will always have a chance to detect the sneak again because of 1d20. If it is a build with high wisdom such as a monk, druid, cleric etc, then it becomes much easier.

Even a character with absolutly no items and just a maxed listen can detect every sneak just with umd. Just add up the numbers of C&C, Amplify, Heroism/Gr.Heroism, Owls wisdom/Owls insight and the numbers can get very high.

The second is passive detection. Just in case one does not want to invest in detection skills, spells can be used to detect sneaks. At first there were just AoE spells. Gareut made good used of that by casting Spike groth wchich lasts 1hour/level. For those umd characters there are CL20 and 30 versions of that scroll to be found.

Then, because it was not possible to cast those damaging spells in every area, such as outside the FAI we implemented the Alarm spell. Done. Hide/MS suddenly has not use. And because there is a ding heard by the alarm spell that notifies both the detector and the sneak, we implemented the silent alarm... so that only the detector is notified.

The final type of detection is the metagaming one. Listening to the footstep noise or the sound effects spells do after transitions makes everyone aware of nearby sneaks. Even those that dont want to metagame the sneak, is hard, because they know someone is there. Once someone listens to those sound effects, usually castings of C&C and amplify are followed...

To sum things up, the changes wont result in undetectable sneaks. It might require for some characters to actually have some detection gear on but nothing compared to hte gear a sneak has to have. Other than that, alarm and AoE spells cover the rest who dont want to bother with detection.

[Young Werther]

I've heard a rumor that in game lighting and the map's placeables have an effect on the stealth score. Can't help but wonder how big that really is if true.

[Blackman D]

the game engine does a lot for both stealth and detection, lighting and dark tiles are one of them yes, its basically the same bonus as day/night but mostly refers to interior maps

day gives +5 spot / lighted tiles (something with a light source light a torch placeable with a light effect) gives +5 spot within the lights range

night gives +5 hide / dark tiles give +5 hide

low light and darkvision negate hide bonus from nighttime and dark tiles because they can see in the dark

that is only a few

[Blackman D]

suppose i should also add since you asked that the spell light also does the same thing

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Even the fighter who dumps all points into spot it can detect any sneak if thats what he wants. Of course, in order to detect a sneak who invests heavily in hiding ( which results in low AC/Saves/HP ) the same way the fighter needs to invest more in detection and sacrifice something in other areas. If you expect to have the fighter getting full bonuses on HP/Saves/AC/AB/Damage AND being able to detect every sneak, that is not going to happen. Sacrifices need to be made on both sides.

33 + maybe +2 from attributes = 0% chance to spot. Presuming a fighting will dump four feats and gear out explicitly to spot sneaks and spam consumables is nonsensical.

[mrm3ntalist]

33 + maybe +2 from attributes = 0% chance to spot. Presuming a fighting will dump four feats and gear out explicitly to spot sneaks and spam consumables is nonsensical.

It has a chance to spot a character with up to 54hide. The 0 chance is for anything above that. But then that fighter can use potions/scrolls/wands and one or two items, then he can detect the majority of sneaks.

[Blackman D]

a fighter that can get 33 spot or listen dipped into something with detection, if that something also has UMD it opens the option for said fighter to use wands and thus amp, C&C and owls which pre nerf was another +12 spot and +32 listen which would put said fighter to 45 spot and 65 listen

then again d20 for up to 65 hide spotted and 90 MS detected because of the +5 bonus when not moving

so yes a fighter could, and that is still ignoring gear

[thids]

I wanted to link a post where I'm saying "if we introduce these +3 items now, where will it stop?", but that thread has unfortunately disappeared. I'm going to post the video anyway.



Went from "let's introduce +3 hide/ms items into the loot table" to introducing +4AC +4hide/ms items (even though the idea of increasing AC instead of hide and MS has been furiously rejected by the sneak lobby ) and nerfing the crap out of amplify and C&C.

Yet another notch on my internet argument victory board.

[mrm3ntalist]

I wanted to link a post where I'm saying "if we introduce these +3 items now, where will it stop?", but that thread has unfortunately disappeared. I'm going to post the video anyway.



Went from "let's introduce +3 hide/ms items into the loot table" to introducing +4AC +4hide/ms items (even though the idea of increasing AC instead of hide and MS has been furiously rejected by the sneak lobby ) and nerfing the crap out of amplify and C&C.

Yet another notch on my internet argument victory board.

So what?

[Mallore]

Nobody is nerfing stealth, it's a nerf to the detectors. What are you talking about?

I suppose what I wrote made more sense in my head. What I was saying is just a general opinion I have on hide vs detection in the game. The way I wrote was more general conversation instead of an in depth opinion artical. Sorry.

I was implying with current gear balance, area effects and spells that stealth is nerfed or better term disadvantaged. Not that it will get worse. Or become more so later. I did not mean to imply that. Just a general opinion I hold in reflection to current mechanics.

I was suggesting a class/group or role in the game is being hampered by current balances and not allowed to live to its potential. Yes this can be said about many roles in the game though I would argue no so much as the sneak.

I agree with you whole heartedly other wise.

Sorry for the confusion

[AlwaysSummer Day]

33 + maybe +2 from attributes = 0% chance to spot. Presuming a fighting will dump four feats and gear out explicitly to spot sneaks and spam consumables is nonsensical.

It has a chance to spot a character with up to 54hide. The 0 chance is for anything above that. But then that fighter can use potions/scrolls/wands and one or two items, then he can detect the majority of sneaks.

54 hide so. . . A low level sneak? Read the original post. This is an all or nothing ability. Either you win or lose based on if it works or not. That is the issue. Not some abstract argument over what has to invest how much to remain viable.

[mrm3ntalist]

33 + maybe +2 from attributes = 0% chance to spot. Presuming a fighting will dump four feats and gear out explicitly to spot sneaks and spam consumables is nonsensical.

It has a chance to spot a character with up to 54hide. The 0 chance is for anything above that. But then that fighter can use potions/scrolls/wands and one or two items, then he can detect the majority of sneaks.

54 hide so. . . A low level sneak? Read the original post. This is an all or nothing ability. Either you win or lose based on if it works or not. That is the issue. Not some abstract argument over what has to invest how much to remain viable.

I am not in your head. I cant possibly know what you mean by 0% chance.

A fighter with a maxed detection skill, can detect ANY sneak if he wants to do it. If what your are arguing is that a fighter with only 33skills in a detection skill and nothing else, should be able to detect a sneak that has everything invested in sneak items then yes, there is 0% chance of that happeneing and that is how it is supposed to be.