3 by 20

[Blame The Rogue]

when this becomes the focus of significant changes to the server....where do i begin?

some build rules are arbitrary

it's a multi-class system, and some prcs even make it obvious, that there was intent, to take one level in one class in some cases

for some reason this offended certain people's sensibilities

then, someone, somewhere, decided one day, that imposing some type of 3 by 20 rule, would make rp better?

then other servers started using the rule as well

by those guidelines, poor elminster, is not even a legal character

this is a rule that i never agreed with. and to be honest, when it was first applied to bg, i left the server

the rule doesnt enhance rp. it doesnt make the game more fun. and it isnt necessary for mechanical balance

if this is the main reason for staff not wanting to keep certain functions in game for players, then i feel it's time for staff to re-evaluate this arbitrary build rule

i encourage everyone to post their opinion on this. i'm curious to see how others feel about this unnecessary rule

[Calodan]

Where to start? Ummmm I hate it? Am I used to it at this point? Yes. Would it at least be more plausible if they made it just 3b30? Yeah that would be nice. Most of the dip builds you want anyway you want before epic levels anyway except for a handful of builds that could actually be made with a 3b30 but not with a 3b20. I had a build that would benefit from a 3b30 but was not possible with 3b20. Nothing OP or anything it could be made in 3b20 but you miss out on Bane of ENemies Epic feat since the 21st level of Ranger would fall on level 30 and there was no feat to be had there. Which kinda sucked. A ranger without BOE is no ranger at all.

Just in case even the D&D eggheads forgot ol Elminsters class build....

Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5

So yeah Lore and all......

[Maecius]

3b20 is literally one of the oldest rules in the BG book, dating back to 2008:

http://theswordcoast.proboards.com/thre ... rules-read

Doing away with it was recently discussed in QC. I personally do not think that we should get rid of it though. I feel that restrictions are part of what makes building on BG unique and enjoyable. At least that's been my experience with it.

BG is probably the slowest character growth, most difficult server of all the popular servers in the NWN2 community (and yes, I am saying that like it's a good thing), and if we keep sliding the scale closer and closer to "easy mode," we're going to lose a lot of what makes us unique within the community. We've already given a lot of concessions to the "I want more power" faction lately, and I think we're probably sliding back the other way just a scotch now. As in all things, balance is key.

Please also be advised that the "General Discussion" forums are not the place to post suggestions like these. We have a dedicated subforum for suggestions and bug reports.

[Akroma666]

Topic moved to Suggestions!

[Blame The Rogue]

i do not feel it has a significant impact on game mechanics from a "power" standpoint

i understand the rule has been on this server for some time. it did not arrive to great fanfare. it was one of the times i left the server

i feel the origin of the rule was from someone who was a 2ed fan, and had certain notions about what they felt was purity, and those values dont apply to 3.0-3.5ed, on which the engine is based

the engine is a multi-class system, and 3 by 20 interferes with what the engine was set up to do. again, i'm not talking about a power perspective

that a character cant be 1 level rogue is invalid imo in this 3.0-3.5ed ruleset

edit: i placed the post in general discussion to be discussed you have moved it to suggestions, and if you feel that is the appropriate place for it, so be it

[Moltrazahn]

Change the... 3b20?

Pft! What next... let us not breathe air?! *Posh insulted chin to sky attitude*

In all honesty tho... I can't say I mind it. I've played here so long that whenever I even think of a build it's automatic converted into BG requirements xP.

For me it would seem weird... also if it was done I'd hope for full rcr for... well.... everyone.

I am tho far too much of an old dog here to see it gone tho.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I don't mind it. That said I would also like ECL to count towards total level cap.

Oh and maecius check out dalelands beyond and enjoy their 1xp a kill in epic levels. Surprisingly fun when people don't bother to grind in late levels.

[Blame The Rogue]

fun to some, but perhaps not others

i don't see an enhancement to rp in preventing one from reaching their potential. i see, in fact, the opposite effect

we can agree to disagree

of course, epic xp, epic lvls, and the way they're treated as evil, is another topic

[Eclypticon]

The rule slows the power element of the leveling process and works as intended. Sometimes it seems stupid, I agree, but without it, people will be much more powerful sooner. Some builds will be able to level at a faster rate than others.

The builds that suffer the most now are the arcane mixes I believe. We fixed the dispel bug and left the cap too high for many reasonable builds to work like they used to. There is now no point in playing certain PrCs combinations unless you are willing to get dispelled. The rule is now making a good number of builds unplayable in certain areas.

I am still hesitant to pull the 3b20 though. Its a shame some builds are no longer as viable.

[Blame The Rogue]

ya. that's one of my points

3 by 20 is not allowing proper multi-classing in a multi-class system

there's always going to be a difference in power at different levels by different types of builds. that will never change

3 by 20 just allows fewer options, which leads to a stack of similar very capable builds on the server. a bunch of characters with the same builds. i'm sure dms can name a few right off the top of their heads

as someone mentioned other servers, i'd like to mention, that the other two servers in the top 3 atm, have few build rules. they have no 3 by 20 rules

i understand certain rules, as no monk druid, but 3 by 20 is one i don't agree with

[Tsidkenu]

1 level dip SDs. No thanks.

[Blame The Rogue]

it's part of certain aspects of multi-classing and prcs

we should ask ourselves, why did the game devs give hips at first level sd? let's think about that for a moment

it was intended

dipping is another one of those derogatory terms i see used for utilizing a multi-class system in the proper manner

1 sd is not a rp killer. it's not a fun killer. it's not a mechanical killer

hence my thread

the entire point of this multi-class system, is to be able to take as many levels, or as few levels, in up to four classes, as one chooses, by level 30, to match rp, and be capable within the engine

a character can be 1 sd, or 3, or 5, or 10

[AC81]

I'd be against it mate. Aside from the 1 dip SD'ers, what would mainly happen is 1 level of cleric for EDM. Having 1 level dips available really strengthens casters. Especially now with a dispel fix. Anything that makes casters even more powerful, I'm against.

[Blame The Rogue]

in some cases 1 lvl sd makes a weaker build than 3 sd, in others 3 sd makes a weaker build than 1 sd

such is my point

with the practiced spellcaster fix, casters are no more powerful in dc with 1-4 lvls of rogue, or sd, or cleric, etc

and what if someone takes 1 cleric and they take edm on that level? they gain no other benefits of cleric levels above and beyond level 1, as it should be

forcing players to take 2 more levels in a class when it doesn't match their character is not only bad rp, but also not in the intent of the multi-class system

[AC81]

What I mean is atm casters are a bit limited in their dips. If they take 3 non-caster levels it'd be wise to take practised caster so they don't get dispelled to their underwear by mobs. If we bring in no level restrictions I can guarantee you'd have FS26/SD1/C1/F2 combos and the like running around. The above build gets HiPS, Evasion (through domains), Expose Weakness, Martial Weapon prof, 2 extra fighter feats (essentially covering SD requirements of dodge and mobility for free), Heavy Armour prof, Tumble and CL30. That's just off the top of my head. So many hugely powerful builds open up. Another one that just popped into my head is GT74's Blackjack build series, basically centred around Bard 26. It would need a server wide rebalance of mobs and would likely be a DMing nightmare because every other toon would be a HiPS abuser.
BtR, love you mate, you've got some truly great ideas that sadly not many people get to hear unless they RP with you but this is a massive change.