3 by 20

[Blame The Rogue]

nothing you mention is as powerful as the current leader board of FvS and dragon druid

songs break stealth, so that's been addressed

no worries man. we're friends, but we don't have to agree on everything. what a boring world that would be

[Valefort]

It's true that it is a completely arbitrary rule that artificially hampers RP but it curbs the power level significantly. Of course it is not perfect and there are still tons of builds that can stomp the PvE content into nothingness but removing this rule would raise the maximum power level, which is always a bad thing in my opinion.

Arbitrary doesn't mean it's good or bad, you have to look at the consequences and re-reading the first post I say : it makes the game more fun and it is now necessary for mechanical balance as the content has been developed for years with that limitation taken into account.

nothing you mention is as powerful as the current leader board of FvS and dragon druid

songs break stealth, so that's been addressed

no worries man. we're friends, but we don't have to agree on everything. what a boring world that would be

Actually the FS 26/F2 /SD1/cleric 1 is much more powerful than what FS can do at the moment, or dragon druids.

[Blame The Rogue]

fs in heavy armor would have trouble utilizing hips, but i see your point

it seems the real issue is that everyone but FvS, druid, bard, cleric, are the ones truly being punished by the 3 of each class and by 20 rule

the examples for not removing 3 by 20 rule seems to focus on those classes that are already at the top of the heap

as for rp, that is indeed a sad sad part of all this. want to be a rogue 29/sd 1? perfectly understandable rp build. nope. cant happen. 3 by 20 rule in place preventing FvSs from being a SD

[Boddynock]

it seems the real issue is that everyone but FvS, druid, bard, cleric, are the ones truly being punished by the 3 of each class and by 20 rule

Not sure I agree with that. Casters have their own difficulties with the 3b20 rule, in that maintaining a high CL is more difficult when you MUST take 3 levels of any class you want to take.

[Valefort]

Even if you have 0 hide/ms HiPS is still a golden feat because it allows you to break spell lock and detection isn't instant so you get nice free hits on a flat-footed target provided you were close to it.

That rule punishes everyone, I think it's quite hard to say who it harms the most as there are so many possibilities to look at... I'm with AC81 on this though, I see more powerbuilding possibilities for spellcasters than for other classes without a 3b20 rule.

One clear consequence of the 3b20 is that some specific builds are the top dogs. If you remove it those top builds will change and be more powerful. Isn't that a bad enough thing to keep the 3b20 rule ?

[Blame The Rogue]

it came up for vote recently maecius said

i'm curious how close the vote was

surely there's a way to keep balance and not have the 3 by 20 rule? other servers seemed to have achieved this

understand your point about fs getting a flat-footed hit against a foe, but let's be honest, adding ab to already good ab....the fs was going to be able to hit the mob anyway without hips

[matelener]

Why not 3b30? Sounds like an acceptable middleground.

[Tsidkenu]

Why not 3b30? Sounds like an acceptable middleground.

Already under discussion

[Valefort]

It's the same idea, it allows for more power. Far less of course than no rule at all but why do it in the first place ?

[NegInfinity]

1 level dip SDs. No thanks.

Actually that makes a class lose one AB, while adding two more levels of SD showers the character with skillpoints, gives them evasion, dark vision and uncanny dodge + ability to summon shadows.

Either way, I have no strong opinion on the subject.

[ragnarok1983]

< pro-3x30
< anti-3x20

And this is because characters should continue to change and develop past 20. If interactions with the servers most badass paladin makes you want to pursue that particular path... the fact that you are Level 22 should not be what stops you.

I only somewhat agree with the three-level rule but considering the amount of one level of clerics and one level of Shadow Dancer builds that would result... I can somewhat understand.

But I'll never like a power building rules that hinders RP development. Never.

[Calodan]

One clear consequence of the 3b20 is that some specific builds are the top dogs. If you remove it those top builds will change and be more powerful. Isn't that a bad enough thing to keep the 3b20 rule ?

The answer to this is no. It is not. That argument is in the same line of disarming people because of a few idiots who use them improperly. 3b30 should be the standard. Move SD Hips to level 3. Now most builds will want to get all 3 very quickly and will do so by 20 I promise you! If they do not they have to pay the price of it not granting that OPness until much later. That is a conundrum. A choice in building that one can make. I know for certain that some builds are extremely powerful but are terrible to level up here. Just simple mechanics. They do not get their true power until level 25+. In fact Kory's FvS/WM/R build was that way. It was terrible to level up from 16-27. Even as a FvS but the issue was low caster level until the later levels and not getting a full spellbook until later.

[Mallore]

My problem with the servers 3 x20 rule and why it is anti role play.


I started my character as a rogue as that is where her story began. After ten levels of rogue she discovers the joy of moving in an out of shadows and the power one can call from it.

Now I'm reaching level 20 and her story continues. I want to pick another class but want rp to decide it (I do not map out builds. I do not believe its reflective of character growth) she's at a cross roads. She can become a guild theif or a master spy. Unlikely to become an agent but she could go solid combat depending on other character influences on her and thus dervish.

Either way the 3 X 20 rule says no to all this.


I recall a saying here that the server is like a character journey. Well I have ten levels left to my journey to 30. My last ten should be in something reflecting my journey. Well at least 5 as some of these classes are just five levels.


I'm not looking into breaking rules or mets builds. But I do not understand how people can not see how negative this is on rp. While I would like a spirit of the rule to remain as no doubt there are mech reasons behind it. I like open windows for cases.

[Mallore]

1 level dip SDs. No thanks.

Actually that makes a class lose one AB, while adding two more levels of SD showers the character with skillpoints, gives them evasion, dark vision and uncanny dodge + ability to summon shadows.

Either way, I have no strong opinion on the subject.

I think you should have to take SD levels minimun of 7. Same level assassins get HIPS.

You don't learn the craft and get to leave it. That's against lore and cannon.


You should also have to worship an appreciate God for hips. But that's just me being a fanatic.

[chad878262]

As Tsid said, 3b30 is an option which has/is under consideration. I would vehemently oppose allowing 1 level 'dips' personally as I don't see taking 1 level of Cleric or SD as a 'RP' item...I don't think it is realistic to call 1 level dips anything besides power building (sorry, you're free to disagree). 3b30 does allow for more power creep which as Maecius said, has to be carefully considered. However, it's much less than removing the rule entirely. It essentially allows for two main bonuses, leveling in such a way that allows characters to obtain extra epic feats where today they would have to take some of those levels pre-epic and allowing for the delay of an XP penalty for certain builds until near the end of the build. IMO these are not huge power bumps. One could essentially gain 2 bonus fighter epic feats, 1 bonus DC epic feat or perhaps an epic bonus feat here or there for some of the other customer PRC's. Not a gigantic number, but no epic feat is insignificant either. Likewise if you are dipping a class that carries an XP penalty you could take the levels at 28/29/30 or if it is a combo where you have 3 non Prestige Classes in your build you could keep the lower two in line until the very end, in some cases they would only be out of sync at level 30, nullifying any penalty. Again, is it a HUGE bump in power? no, but it is not insignificant either and should be considered before a change is made.

End of the day 3b20 does not kill any type of RP IMO since, frankly if a specific class is inherently a part of your character RP concept they should probably be learning the skills throughout their career. Classes represent the mechanical abilities of your character. However, that characters personality is not tied to a class and their are many PRC's/classes that have cross-over skills and abilities so if a specific skill or ability is tied to your RP in some way there are many ways to get said skill/ability. The only difference (IMO) between 3b20 and 3b30 or especially doing away with the rule all together is a few power building options. Again, doing away with the rule entirely is a non-starter for me personally because I feel it absolutely is only a mechanical power building option and doesn't support the RP of a given character, certainly not more than having a minimum of 3 levels, indicating at least 10% of your characters experience is in whatever class/PRC is in question (vs. 3.33% with only 1 level in a class)