Spot vs Listen

[Valefort]

Mechanically with the changes of amplify reduced to +10 and not stacking with c&c + the introduction of the disguise skill, countered by spot and not by listen, is there any reason to pick listen over spot anymore ?

• Spot is a detection skill that allows you to know who is there
• Spot counters feint
• Spot counters disguise

• Listen allows you to detect sneakers without letting you know who they are (unless metagaming)
• That's it !

Listen used to be a superior pick for detection purposes because it was easy to get a high listen and hard to get a high move silently, now getting a high listen is as hard as getting a high spot.

Hide is still easier to pump than move silently (mainly thanks to camouflage spell) so listen arguably remains the best detection skill, but not by much anymore, especially since you don't know who is around. At this point it seems to me that you can just go for spot and forget listen if you have the choice.

Leaving the detection part as it is... shouldn't listen get some love and be used for other purposes than detection ?

[Blame The Rogue]

a valid question

spot also works well when the sneaker is standing still, where listen does not?

[matelener]

I see two advantages of listen:

1. Most of the sneaks have a lower Move Silently score than Hide.

2. With Listen you could detect someone without Line of Sight.

Though, I almost always pick spot over listen, if I have an access to both.

[Flasmix]

spot also works well when the sneaker is standing still, where listen does not?

That would make sense... But no, I've been heard countless times when standing still.

[Tantive]

Mechanicly you should be able to hear a person using the invisible spell if they dont have enough move silently, but we don't have the tools to differentiate much except for the fact that a sneaker makes ooc sound when standing still, but not invisible.

[Mallore]

Truth be told modern d&d systems fixed this issue.

Hide and MS merged to one skill called stealth.
Spot and listen merged to one skill called perception.

It be cool to see this. Free up points for rp classes to enhance their rp skill.



Listen can be used to hear through doors in DM events.
Listen should give a circumstance bonus to detect motive.

Listen can let you focus in on whispering in a DM event.


I do not think listen needs more in game computer effects.

[NegInfinity]

Mechanically with the changes of amplify reduced to +10 and not stacking with c&c + the introduction of the disguise skill, countered by spot and not by listen, is there any reason to pick listen over spot anymore ?

• Spot is a detection skill that allows you to know who is there
• Spot counters feint
• Spot counters disguise

• Listen allows you to detect sneakers without letting you know who they are (unless metagaming)
• That's it !

Listen used to be a superior pick for detection purposes because it was easy to get a high listen and hard to get a high move silently, now getting a high listen is as hard as getting a high spot.

Hide is still easier to pump than move silently (mainly thanks to camouflage spell) so listen arguably remains the best detection skill, but not by much anymore, especially since you don't know who is around. At this point it seems to me that you can just go for spot and forget listen if you have the choice.

Leaving the detection part as it is... shouldn't listen get some love and be used for other purposes than detection ?

I think listen detects enemies through walls, while spot still requires line of sight. Might be wrong about it.

Mechanicly you should be able to hear a person using the invisible spell if they dont have enough move silently, but we don't have the tools to differentiate much except for the fact that a sneaker makes ooc sound when standing still, but not invisible.

Nwn1 allowed detection of invisible creatures with listen skill. They were perceived as concealed. NWN2 doesn't have this mechanic anymore. IIRC in PNP incredibly high spot roll could be used to see invisible creatures as well

Also see:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm
And:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spot

In all honesty, in general spot seems to be much more useful.

It be cool to see this.

Since we're not playing modern D&D, that would be a no.

[chad878262]

I am fairly sure the Hide/MS vs. detection mechanics are hard coded. I don't think there is a way to circumvent them, otherwise 'stealth' vs. 'perception' would be fantastic, but even if possible it would probably be too time consuming to be a priority right now...

[Mallore]

I have notice detecting monsters through walls but not all dungeons are set up for this I think.

I can notice some monsters while others I can not. And it seams constant not a sometimes.

[Mallore]

I am fairly sure the Hide/MS vs. detection mechanics are hard coded. I don't think there is a way to circumvent them, otherwise 'stealth' vs. 'perception' would be fantastic, but even if possible it would probably be too time consuming to be a priority right now...

Also all the spells and abilities. Fears that would be affects.

But I can wish for a perfect world for shadows.

[Mallore]

It be cool to see this.

Since we're not playing modern D&D, that would be a no.

Uh which version of D&D are we playing?

Seams more a blur.

[NegInfinity]

It be cool to see this.

Since we're not playing modern D&D, that would be a no.

Uh which version of D&D are we playing?

Seams more a blur.

3.5

[matelener]

I am fairly sure the Hide/MS vs. detection mechanics are hard coded. I don't think there is a way to circumvent them, otherwise 'stealth' vs. 'perception' would be fantastic, but even if possible it would probably be too time consuming to be a priority right now...

Pick one to have a synergetic effect.

Spot = Spot + Listen

Hide = Hide + Move Silently

Let the engine handle Spot vs Hide

Of course, both Spot and Listen would need to be available to all classes capable of skilling eighter

[Mallore]

Uh which version of D&D are we playing?

Seams more a blur.

3.5

If only that was true. With all the changes and none changes. Continent missing and put in.

Rules and choices.

Yeah arguing 3.5 purity as a reason to not do something is straw.

[mrm3ntalist]

Pick one to have a synergetic effect.

Spot = Spot + Listen

Hide = Hide + Move Silently

Let the engine handle Spot vs Hide

Of course, both Spot and Listen would need to be available to all classes capable of skilling eighter

Even if that was possible to do, what would this achieve other than make sneaks harder to detect?

- Listen is still the better detection skill. All spells give bonus to Hide ( scrolls/potions/wands ). At the same time only pass without a trace gives bonus to MS and that cannot be crafted to a wand or scroll or potion.

- There are some classes and prcs that get only listen. Bard, barbarian, palemaster. Its one way for them.