3 by 20

[Akroma666]

I disagree with changing this rule at all to be honest. Even the 3 by 30. It would dramatically change the power creep and you would see a whole lot more fighter/divine champion archtipes taking the levels past 20 for feat substitution. Honestly the 3by20 is a great challenge to me and I've come to appreciate building to fit its constraints.

I would be disappointed if staff changed the rule to 3by30 and let the 50% RCR bot go through... So many horrible bring debuilds.

[Mallore]

I disagree with changing this rule at all to be honest. Even the 3 by 30. It would dramatically change the power creep and you would see a whole lot more fighter/divine champion archtipes taking the levels past 20 for feat substitution. Honestly the 3by20 is a great challenge to me and I've come to appreciate building to fit its constraints.

I would be disappointed if staff changed the rule to 3by30 and let the 50% RCR bot go through... So many horrible bring debuilds.

I agree with all you said. But all I read was build build build.

None of that is rp. And the 3 x20 punishes role play. Granted I and a hand full of others maybe the small minority negatively affected. Thus I hope there is exceptions made to none clear power building classes.

[chad878262]

None of that is rp. And the 3 x20 punishes role play. Granted I and a hand full of others maybe the small minority negatively affected. Thus I hope there is exceptions made to none clear power building classes.

Can you qualify this statement at all? Not trying to put you on the spot, but I fail to see how waiting until after level 20 to take levels in a class (or more than one level in class) enhances role play. Is this something where your level 20 (insanely experienced) adventurer somehow decides he/she is ready to apprentice some other expert? For someone with an adventurer's mentality it seems a bit off to suddenly learn how to fight with mundane weapons after spending 20 levels being a wizard/cleric/whatever... how would the rp have been 'lesser' to apprentice at level 17 instead of 20?

[Valefort]

There can be plenty of RP reasons to take a class after 20 to be fair : some wizard studied all his life then after an issue found himself forced to study summoning thoroughly and ... here comes Thaumaturgist, at level 21.

But this way you can also justify taking a new class at level 29, only imagination is the limit here

3b20 RP justifications are flawed because of such examples, which might be snowflakey but are still completely sensible in our setting. It's effectively a rule that hampers RP in order to curb power level, 3b30 would also hampers RP, albeit less. In my eyes its pros outweigh the cons so I'm in favor of keeping the 3b20.

[NegInfinity]

None of that is rp. And the 3 x20 punishes role play. Granted I and a hand full of others maybe the small minority negatively affected. Thus I hope there is exceptions made to none clear power building classes.

Can you qualify this statement at all? Not trying to put you on the spot, but I fail to see how waiting until after level 20 to take levels in a class (or more than one level in class) enhances role play. Is this something where your level 20 (insanely experienced) adventurer somehow decides he/she is ready to apprentice some other expert? For someone with an adventurer's mentality it seems a bit off to suddenly learn how to fight with mundane weapons after spending 20 levels being a wizard/cleric/whatever... how would the rp have been 'lesser' to apprentice at level 17 instead of 20?

That assumes that character builds for power, sticks to one craft and acts logically.

Arguably, properly roleplaying a character means:
1. No build plan.
2. No rebuilds.

With this kind of approach, it would not be surprising for a level 23 wizard to suddenly have life-changing revelation that would cause him to grab 1st level as a rogue. Why not? He already knows level 9 spells, maybe he/she decided that opening boxes is much more fascinating now.

[Mallore]

None of that is rp. And the 3 x20 punishes role play. Granted I and a hand full of others maybe the small minority negatively affected. Thus I hope there is exceptions made to none clear power building classes.

Can you qualify this statement at all? Not trying to put you on the spot, but I fail to see how waiting until after level 20 to take levels in a class (or more than one level in class) enhances role play. Is this something where your level 20 (insanely experienced) adventurer somehow decides he/she is ready to apprentice some other expert? For someone with an adventurer's mentality it seems a bit off to suddenly learn how to fight with mundane weapons after spending 20 levels being a wizard/cleric/whatever... how would the rp have been 'lesser' to apprentice at level 17 instead of 20?

You can try to put me on the spot I don't mind, now I can crush your argument under my greatness of awesomeness.

First. I see my characters levels as a 3 part play, each part an act in her story. Act one is the beginning for her this was rogue. Act two is levels 10 through 20 which where SD brought on by the environment and influences around her. Now she is entering act 3 of her life. This is where she is coming into her own taking on leadership. With such I am looking at classes such as Guild Theif, Master Spy, Harper Agent (though no way now due to rp) or Dervish.

Which will these she chose is up to rp. Will the thieves guild notice her now? Perhaps she will be hired to be a factions top spy. Maybe she will take up the art of light quick fighting to deal with the harsh world she is in.

Her story did not end at level 20.

Her skills are still growing. It's why we still level.

For me my rogue is entering a new growth and will learn skills to reflect her place in the world.

She is super experienced like you said but this doesn't mean she is fully specialized yet. In her next levels she's going to hone one of her abilities to be perfection. She isn't plateau at 20 but has one more hill to go.

Now yes. I agree there can be bonker things. Like a Mage who suddenly sword is appropriate at level 25.


I also agree that by 20 your an expert at what you do but you can build on that and become a master. The best in the world with highly specialized are


So how come I can't do this before 20. Because rp has not made what those last ten levels will be yet. I do not pre plan, that is not how caracter development works for me. Pre planning would only force rp to fit what I want. I cringe when I hear build plans. Characters should level according to rp responses not some set force. Though that is the purist side of me and in the end five to what ever makes people happy.



I hope this helps.


Sorry writing from iPhone during staff meeting.

[chad878262]

while it makes sense to a point... conjuration specialty could equate to feat selection as opposed to a new class, if it is just about the RP. By the same token Guild Thief or Master of Disguise is not the sole way to represent your ascension in to the next chapter/step in your career. This could be done with levels of Rogue just as simply. I can see the RP reason to take classes after 20, but I just can't see how not being able to take those classes somehow invalidates a type of RP or is required for another. The RP presented does not require a new class to represent the growth of the character.

[NegInfinity]

while it makes sense to a point... conjuration specialty could equate to feat selection as opposed to a new class, if it is just about the RP. By the same token Guild Thief or Master of Disguise is not the sole way to represent your ascension in to the next chapter/step in your career. This could be done with levels of Rogue just as simply. I can see the RP reason to take classes after 20, but I just can't see how not being able to take those classes somehow invalidates a type of RP or is required for another. The RP presented does not require a new class to represent the growth of the character.

I'm aware of at least one non-power-build concept that is (AFAIK) impossible with 3b20 but possible with 3b30. That would be hipsing thaumaturge arcane trickster wizard. There might be more of those. I might be wrong about it, but IIRC fitting this concept under 3b20 is either ridiculously difficult or impossible, because it requires 8 points in multiple non-wizard skills, and by the time class advances there, there isn't enough room to fit prestige classes. Might be wrong about it, of course, been a while since I tried to build this.

Anyway, long term character will spend most of their life at epic levels, and with 3b20 said char won't be able to make radical decisions at those epic levels - in regards of classes and all.

I think it is limiting. not sure if it is "critically" limiting, though.

[Eclypticon]

Honestly, with the dispel fix in, I think we aught to allow for certain 1 level dips or 3b30 in non casters. Many of them are much weaker without their UMD being able to get them through. Many of these builds are hurting more than they were before. Some of them were not very viable in high levels to begin with. At the very least, we should consider more class improvements (similar to barbarians).

I do think we need some kind of power build rules, but I'd rather it was not a blanket rule. A case by case approach would be more ideal. It is just immense and hard to approach which makes keeping the old rule far simpler. Its a tough issue, and people are bound to be upset one way or the other.

[chad878262]

while it makes sense to a point... conjuration specialty could equate to feat selection as opposed to a new class, if it is just about the RP. By the same token Guild Thief or Master of Disguise is not the sole way to represent your ascension in to the next chapter/step in your career. This could be done with levels of Rogue just as simply. I can see the RP reason to take classes after 20, but I just can't see how not being able to take those classes somehow invalidates a type of RP or is required for another. The RP presented does not require a new class to represent the growth of the character.

I'm aware of at least one non-power-level concept that is (AFAIK) impossible with 3b20 but possible with 3b30. That would be hipsing thaumaturge arcane trickster wizard. There might be more of those. I might be wrong about it, but IIRC fitting this concept under 3b20 is either ridiculously difficult or impossible, because it requires 8 points in multiple non-wizard skills, and by the time class advances there, there isn't enough room to fit prestige classes. Might be wrong about it, of course, been a while since I tried to build this.

Anyway, long term character will spend most of their life at epic levels, and with 3b20 said char won't be able to make radical decisions at those epic levels - in regards of classes and all.

I think it is limiting. not sure if it is "critically" limiting, though.

What would this build even consist of? Wizard/Assassin/AT/Thaumaturge??? That build would require Assassin to open up skills to qualify for AT and at least 3 levels of assassin due to 2d6 SA requirement. I am not at home to play with the builder, but I want to say this would be possible, though I would not want to attempt levelling it up with the dispel fix. Regardless not sure how the RP works between being an assassin vs. a summoner. If you summon to do the assassination for you why do you have/need the stealth and skillset of an assassin? Doesn't seem to have much RP synergy to me, but if it makes sense to you so be it. I will look and see what's possible, but I think even without any rule there are certain builds that make less sense than others and some builds that are mechanically impossible within the engine (i.e. can't have more than 4 classes, can't have more than 30 levels, can't be a Bard/Paladin or a Monk/FB, etc. No matter what there are always 'illegal' builds so if one can't be done due to 3b20 my opinion would be that it is too difficult for a person to take such divergent paths and leave it at that. There are always going to be parameters to how you level your character, so arguing a specific build that is not possible seems like something that could be done all day long with little movement in the discussion toward a final decision.

[NegInfinity]

I am not at home to play with the builder, but I want to say this would be possible,

As far as I know, it isn't possible, because you can't fit all four classes before level 20 - nwn2 had limit of 4 classes, Assassin and Thaumaturge both require 8 points in non-wizard skills, AND Trickster requires several levels of assassin. As I said, might be wrong about it, so feel free to prove me wrong.

If you summon to do the assassination for you why do you have/need the stealth and skillset of an assassin? Doesn't seem to have much RP synergy to me, but if it makes sense to you so be it.

You're thinking about mechanics and not about character.
For example: loner assassin wizard that doesn't like people and is fascinated with outsiders and opening boxes instead.

[Mallore]

while it makes sense to a point... conjuration specialty could equate to feat selection as opposed to a new class, if it is just about the RP. By the same token Guild Thief or Master of Disguise is not the sole way to represent your ascension in to the next chapter/step in your career. This could be done with levels of Rogue just as simply. I can see the RP reason to take classes after 20, but I just can't see how not being able to take those classes somehow invalidates a type of RP or is required for another. The RP presented does not require a new class to represent the growth of the character.

Well take master of disguise. No number of ranks in disguise because of extra rogue levels will ever equal master of disguise alter self at will.

Each of those prestige class's have some really cool benefits. It's why they are unquie. Which one I chose I do not know yet but excited in rp to find out.

Granted I know I am the rare exception so other then meta reasons. Why can't exceptions be made?

[Selande]

I like the rule.

Sorry if it screws up your builds a bit or if you wanna cram in those last two levels of cleric or shadowdancer at 29 and 30.

It makes people build more creatively and it's pretty much never impeded my builds, ever.
Oh and all my PCs have 3-4 classes.

[kellendril]

1 level dip SDs. No thanks.

+1

This is the main reason for this rule, I imagine.

[AC81]

while it makes sense to a point... conjuration specialty could equate to feat selection as opposed to a new class, if it is just about the RP. By the same token Guild Thief or Master of Disguise is not the sole way to represent your ascension in to the next chapter/step in your career. This could be done with levels of Rogue just as simply. I can see the RP reason to take classes after 20, but I just can't see how not being able to take those classes somehow invalidates a type of RP or is required for another. The RP presented does not require a new class to represent the growth of the character.

Well take master of disguise. No number of ranks in disguise because of extra rogue levels will ever equal master of disguise alter self at will.

Each of those prestige class's have some really cool benefits. It's why they are unquie. Which one I chose I do not know yet but excited in rp to find out.

Granted I know I am the rare exception so other then meta reasons. Why can't exceptions be made?

Because then everyone looks to be the 'exception' and the DM team is flooded with requests - most of which will be thinly veiled attempts at powerbuilding. You talk about your characters journey ... what is the difference from a non- mechanical perspective between level 18 and level 20? From an IC perspective it is very little ...