3 by 20

[Keenar]

They could make the rule only certain classes need to be taken to level 3. Like cleric, Sd, Paladin. But then everyone who plays those splashes will feel they are being ripped off by having to make the sacrifice. And then the staff has to decide where to draw the line and im sure that will be a whole other can of wyrms. From my point of view it is the lesser of two evils with the 3b20 or 3b30. It is a lot less work for staff, and in general most people do not feel that it completely ruins their RP (from what i have seen and from what i have read in this post) to the point that it needs to be completely removed. But i know you feel differently than i do. Just letting you try and see my point of view.

[Snarfy]

Skill access off 1 dip is kinda a big deal.

Understatement of the thread It's a huge deal, equally as huge a deal as all the bonuses you just listed for dipping in each class.

*edit*

we have a 3 by 20 blanket rule that is not 100% effective, and interferes with rp...

I'm still waiting to read a convincing argument as to how a rule that governs mechanics somehow interferes with RP... I mean, I can see how it might stifle a characters organic progression... but, as Keenar says, this really is the lesser of two evils when you compare it to the potential for rampant abuse if the 3x20 weren't in place.

[Blame The Rogue]

no worries. again, i have no problem agreeing to disagree

[Blame The Rogue]

yes werther, and yet, a fighter 26/rogue 2/cleric 1/sd 1, wouldn't be over-powered. capable, but not op

do the same thing to a favored soul, and we would have a power issue

hence my view on specific build rules

[grymhild]

I would have liked to have Ril to be able to do
Bard 3/ cleric 13 / hierophant 10/ Whirling Dervish 4

but I can't because of 3b20, but could at 3b30 (the best I could do is 3b22)

so that means that Ril can't have both Whirling Dervish and hierophant

[Young Werther]

Ah yes... the favored soul. All should bow to it's glory and might!

[Blame The Rogue]

of course, i don't want this to turn into another FvS witch hunt, with torches and pitch forks

just making the point that there are some build combos that would benefit from being able to take 1 lvl in this and that without being op, and would make for interesting rp. and that specific rules should prevent builds that would be op

[Young Werther]

Yes, I'm sorry. I was having a moment. It's also a good argument.

EDIT: Also I would rather SD be taking hips at 3rd level anyway. It seems like a rather advanced technique for a novice SD. SD is such an interesting class RP wise I hate how it's always bastardized into a 1 dip. SO MUCH.

[vbaddict]

Here's the bit vbaddict omitted from his build:

....
Level 21: Fighter (Epic Prowess; Expose Weakness)

3b20 exists to curb mechanics, not RP. And I dare say the majority of builds that would utilise 1 level dips do so for mechanical reasons primarily, secondarily justified by some snippet of RP.

BtR, if you're an exception, that's good! But that fact isnt gunna change the 3b20 rules for the other 99 who aren't.

Sorry, my long winded post may of conveyed the opposite of what I intended. I came away from this thread reassured that BGTSCC's existing build progression policy does not interfere with RP. If anything the build in my post prompts us to ask, "does BtR's story of Jimmy really have to change if his build is Ro3F5 instead of Ro1F7?" And even if everyone cant agree, the answer to this question doesn't matter.

If a player is unconcerned about mechanics and truly lets RP dictate the progression of his build... if I were a DM, I'd have great respect for this player. Because the resulting PC would be mechanically inferior, it would be very easy to approve this player's exemption from the 3b20 rule.

[NegInfinity]

EDIT: Also I would rather SD be taking hips at 3rd level anyway.

I really dislike when people get those kind of ideas....

We could also modify casters in such way that they'll only get one cantrip and level 10 and another one at level 20, because magic is too advanced for novices.

---

This kind of idea could make sense if shadowdancer was a base class. It is not. One level in a class represents significant time dedicated to the class and that's by someone who's already highly skilled in the art of sneaking. Plus, the ability is supernatural, and is very different from ranger's HiPS (which is non-magical).

It is a magical world, after all.

[Tsidkenu]

Sorry, my long winded post may of conveyed the opposite of what I intended...

I was making a joke

[grymhild]

EDIT: Also I would rather SD be taking hips at 3rd level anyway.

I really dislike when people get those kind of ideas....

We could also modify casters in such way that they'll only get one cantrip and level 10 and another one at level 20, because magic is too advanced for novices.

---

This kind of idea could make sense if shadowdancer was a base class. It is not. One level in a class represents significant time dedicated to the class and that's by someone who's already highly skilled in the art of sneaking. Plus, the ability is supernatural, and is very different from ranger's HiPS (which is non-magical).

It is a magical world, after all.

strawman, fallacy of false equivalence, argument to absurdity

[Blame The Rogue]

i can follow that line of thinking though

in reality you have to be, what, level 8 to take sd if you meet the prereqs?

i see it more as something grouped together in this instance

i don't see, 7 rogue/1 sd. i see (8roguesd). 8 lvls of sneaky goodness as a total package

the devs made sd in such a way that one could A)take 1 level of it with many levels of rogue, ranger, etc, to add hips to your hide/ms. or B)10 lvls sd to take advantage of more extras from the class

look at sd as a bookend. a bookend as narrow, or wide, as you need it to be

intended by the game designers imo

[Young Werther]

EDIT: Also I would rather SD be taking hips at 3rd level anyway.

I really dislike when people get those kind of ideas....

We could also modify casters in such way that they'll only get one cantrip and level 10 and another one at level 20, because magic is too advanced for novices.

---

This kind of idea could make sense if shadowdancer was a base class. It is not. One level in a class represents significant time dedicated to the class and that's by someone who's already highly skilled in the art of sneaking. Plus, the ability is supernatural, and is very different from ranger's HiPS (which is non-magical).

It is a magical world, after all.

strawman, fallacy of false equivalence, argument to absurdity

It's fine. I realized SD has to take 19 dex and that is satisfying to me.

[Kauaiian]

I personally don't mind 3b20. Its a challenge to build around. What bothers me are the class dips with no RP to reflect it. 3 level Istishian clerics come to mind.

But as vbaddict wrote, maybe the process to get a post 20 class added be bumped as I do know historically people were able to do it with RP proof to back it up.