3 by 20

[Boddynock]

Or at least that is how it is supposed to work.

And there it is, all throughout your post. You realize that in the absence of rules (which you haven't provided, since what you used isn't the ruleset we use here AND doesn't support your claim) or you being the DM that how you think things are "supposed to work" doesn't mean anything, right?

Your ideas about how things should be are great for your character, but it ends there. No one else has to play that way until the rules or the DMs say so, and they don't.

[Eclypticon]

I think we have had about as good as a discussion as we can hope to get. There have been some decent arguments in my opinion, but I doubt there is much more to say on this topic.

[Atlas]

-

[Wyatt]

*Saunters in and hikes up the Sam Brown belt holding his six shooters.*

"Ya'll keep it civil in here, y' hear else we're closin' this here establishment down fer the night."

[Akroma666]

Wow this thread fell off the wheels real quick!

*Casts summon Akroma VI*

*Spell failure*

Gents I'm going to lock this one as it is beyond off topic and already under consideration by QC and DM staff. Should anyone wish to continue in a civil manner about the original topic, please PM the mods in 24 hours for unlock.

Edit: request received, thread will unlock tomorrow. PM the mod team if I forget please.

[Akroma666]

Topic has been unlocked as requested.
Please keep future posts on topic and respectful to other players.

To take a page from Wyatts book;
Y'all play nice, or we will be shutting this here establishment down fer good!

[Thorsson]

Perhaps Atlas would care to open another thread on the RP aspects of classes. Personally I generally agree with his proposition, as it's part of playing your character sheet.

But back to the main course here. I'm going to take issue with Flasmix's 'paint by numbers' definitions of 'power build' and 'RP build'.

1. Min-maxing stats. Actually I don't know many people who do that; it's not actually much fun. OTOH having at least 10 (or is it 11?) in every stat does not make an RP build. How many people do you know who are average or above in every respect? Even I am not perfect - something has to give way to account for my mighty intellect! Besides, being below average in one area makes for more interesting RP in my opinion; the dumb Fighter, the frail wizard, the weedy rogue - these are archtypes for a good reason.

2. I already dealt with Casters taking dips. IMO non-casters taking Fighter 1 or 2 should be allowed. Sure they won't have to waste a level with F3, but so what? What does a Rogue gain except Free Feats? Martial weapons will help very little and heavy armor not at all. And you still have to give up a level/class. Take the classic R16/Asn9/IB5 - what do you drop to take the Fighter dip? And you're still not a caster.

3. SD dips - on non-casters is this really a game breaker? Firstly for power you'd always take Assassin if you could. Secondly you have to have 19 Dex, so we won't have too many SD/WMs, and even if we did they'd be trading away damage. In any case they'd want 2 levels to get Evasion, so how much can they do with 1 level? At best you might squeeze out an extra Feat. Woo-hoo; but you're still toast compared to a caster now that UMD doesn't save your ass. Oh and there's exactly as much RP justification for having a 1 level SD dip as there is a 3 level one, which could be anywhere between zero and total.

[Blame The Rogue]

sd has hips on lvl 1. the game devs could have put it on any lvl. they chose lvl 1

respectfully flasmix, what you bring up isnt really comparable, as it is obviously a sf bug. apples and oranges

we can agree to disagree. it's okay to do so. no two people will ever agree on everything

i agree with you on rp justification thorsson. well stated

I do understand your point that setting up a bunch of rules to replace 3b20 might be time consuming. I'm not convinced however. Here's a nice simple one for you - Full Caster Base Classes have to stick to 3b20; anything else doesn't. Non-casters are never going to threaten the power levels of casters, so nothing would need to change on server balance.

i like that simple rule suggestion

[Flasmix]

I challenge anybody reading this thread to start over and take a shot when someone posts "agree to disagree".

[Boddynock]

I challenge anybody reading this thread to start over and take a shot when someone posts "agree to disagree".

Pretty sure you just advocated suicide by alcohol poisoning...

[chad878262]

I challenge anybody reading this thread to start over and take a shot when someone posts "agree to disagree".

Challenge accepted! *runs to get shotgun and shells*

Wait... what were you talking about?

[AC81]

Oh and there's exactly as much RP justification for having a 1 level SD dip as there is a 3 level one, which could be anywhere between zero and total.

So, if there's no difference RP-wise between a 1 and 3 level dip why do we need to adjust anything? This has been my point all along. Heavy RP'ers can still RP a concept with the current rules. All 1 level dips are encouraging is powerbuilding.

No RP difference, huge mechanical difference.

[Thorsson]

Oh and there's exactly as much RP justification for having a 1 level SD dip as there is a 3 level one, which could be anywhere between zero and total.

So, if there's no difference RP-wise between a 1 and 3 level dip why do we need to adjust anything? This has been my point all along. Heavy RP'ers can still RP a concept with the current rules. All 1 level dips are encouraging is powerbuilding.

No RP difference, huge mechanical difference.

Small mechanical difference for non-casters, based against the scale of an EDM FS. The really broken classes that spring to mind are mostly caster oriented, e.g. Cleric, PM, DS. And as I said, SD dips are only really powerful for casters too. But that's because Casters are so damn powerful to start with.

No RP difference I agree with. Therefore RP arguments shouldn't stand in the way of change. I'm glad you agree.

So, do we *need* to change anything. No, we don't. We didn't *need* to change any of the other things we recently changed either. That doesn't seem to have stopped you though, so this seems a particularly poor argument for a member of QC to advance.

[Mallore]

Oh and there's exactly as much RP justification for having a 1 level SD dip as there is a 3 level one, which could be anywhere between zero and total.

So, if there's no difference RP-wise between a 1 and 3 level dip why do we need to adjust anything? This has been my point all along. Heavy RP'ers can still RP a concept with the current rules. All 1 level dips are encouraging is powerbuilding.

No RP difference, huge mechanical difference.

Super agreed. Maybe should be atleast 5 in a class


Problem with 3x20. Is that some (me). Want to take a new class after level 20. Though I would say you have to fit 3 x30 or heck 5x30. . And by new class, one that is very obviously a continuation of a profession. Aka staying in the rogue family of classes. Not some sudden shift to some unrelated class.

The current rule does not allow for this.

[Thorsson]

Maybe should be atleast 5 in a class

There would actually be more justification in this (except that for FoF it's not possible, but the class could always be changed).

That's not saying I'm advocating it, but 5 shows some commitment to a class, while 3 is still a dip. Of course it would bugger up a good portion of the server, but hey ho, it would certainly reduce power levels...