Dispel vs Caster Level

[Akroma666]

I keep seeing this come up, since the dispell fix no one wants to drop below CL 28 let alone 25.
Was curious what the community thoughts are on this? There was also discussion f reverting the system fix back. I was curious if there was a way to still continue to use the current system, just tone it down a tad?
Discuss!

[Young Werther]

Spontaneous casters can still spam spells and divine armor/might can't be dispelled. Just putting that out there. Still wouldn't want to lose every single buff or even certain ones in a fight though.

[Steve]

Well, CL should be tied to Caster Level and not Character Level (as it was when it was an unsquashed bug!).

[AC81]

I love it ... makes casters weaker overall. However, if you think about, well built casters should actually thrive more. It also makes players make sound build choices. My main was a UMD user, he now avoids that unless it's life or death. I've adapted him to not need magic, which is very freeing. I really like how dispels work now.
What we now need are more Beholders!!!

[Tsidkenu]

No.

If you did not build to have 30 CL, why should you have it? Just so your little gish doesn't encounter the inconvenience of being dispelled now and then?

Too bad for you.

[Eclypticon]

I think people have to choose between mechanical superiority and RP choices now more than ever. Many PrCs are being used less if they do not have enough caster levels to fit in with our power build rules. I suspect a dramatic shift in caster builds after the RCR is lifted from 100%. Play a full caster and you still win most of the time. Nothing changes in that regard.

Its important to understand how we arrived at the decision to make the change here. You may not remember, but the dispel cap was actually increased before we implemented the dispel fix. This was done primarily for two reasons. We needed to address the fact that character level was being used instead of caster level and we did not have a dispel fix at the time. The second reason seems to be people want things to work like pen and paper. The dispel fix has mostly been a good thing while the current dispel cap is debatable.

[Kauaiian]

I personally like the fix and applaud the Staff for fixing it. If you're a caster class, be a caster class. If not, you'll suffer the logical and "realistic" consequences. And they've done a great way of balancing the server to suit this fix for the most part.

Opening up Archmage to non spellcasting classes could help a bit, though the requirements of the PRC itself is pretty strict so you'll be more of a caster anyway.

Could make Spellpower I (and I would be the max) obtainable as an epic feat, say with Spellcraft 30 to help out a tad bit.

After playing both arcane and divine gishes, it's easier with divine to maintain CL30. The hierophant class, while having that 15 Lore: Religion and able to cast 7th level spells bottle necks the possibilities a bit, it still works quite easy with a correct build. One metamagic feat requirement normally goes to extend spell so there's no issue there.

[NegInfinity]

Was curious what the community thoughts are on this?

You can't eat the cake and still have it.

Instead of complaining about CL, people should think of new strategies.

[Storm Munin]

The problem are not down to classes and their strengths or weaknesses.
The reasons for the desire to power build are the comparatable strength of NPCs both on server and during events at times, along with PvP dreams of always winning.

No one like to spend 2 hrs in fugue awaiting an event to be over after being mauled by Pinky the super rat in the first encounter.
No one like to not being able to survive in xx procent of the epic areas.
Preferrably most everybody wants to be able to kill epic boss tm, solo.

So the power building ensues for the most part, because normal toons die hard.


On the other side of the scale, some roleplay builds turn out to be far stronger then the builder had dreamed of when he/she decided to make something wierd just because of the roleplay concept.

IMHO

/M

[Valefort]

How are the characters who have a CL between 25 and 30 doing ?

Usually they have other tricks than spellcasting, like HiPS or other survivability abilities, also I've not encountered many dispelling mobs overall so this doesn't seem like an important issue for those builds. Where are the 'problematic' areas/mobs ?

[Aelcar]

On the other side of the scale, some roleplay builds turn out to be far stronger then the builder had dreamed of when he/she decided to make something wierd just because of the roleplay concept.

This.

The RP builds that make sense and have synergy are often performing more or less as well as the top tier builds. The small differences can be bridged with good gameplay, and smart use of powerful, yet limited resources.

The real difference between PBs and good RP builds lies in the margin of error...so don't make mistakes, and everything will be fine.

[Steve]

Bosses wreck havoc on a low CL build. As well, one MUST factor in how the NWN2 AI cheats by "reading" your toon's Sheet, then deciding on what attack is most efficient.

UMD got hosed pretty bad, and I really wish the CL of scrolls could go higher than 15. Then, it would create both a gold sink and provide non-spell casters to survive better. I do realize this often is translated into "soloing," but not always!!!

Years ago, when a proponent of the Dispel Fix, the goal was to upload the fix BUT make it realistically fair to be CL 25 and stay "viable" on BGTSCC. CL 25 now translates into a 25% chance of Greater Dispelling ruining your toon's adventure.

25% wouldn't be so bad if this was PnP, but as a CPRG, one experiences mobs far too frequently in a Rest Time, which means the gameplay is slowed done in order to compensate with the dispel loss.

And I'd imagine no one likes their gameplay to be slowed down!!

[Blame The Rogue]

How are the characters who have a CL between 25 and 30 doing ?

Usually they have other tricks than spellcasting, like HiPS or other survivability abilities, also I've not encountered many dispelling mobs overall so this doesn't seem like an important issue for those builds. Where are the 'problematic' areas/mobs ?

except a wiz/at, as was mentioned in the AT thread, as the current system forces them to choose rogue or sd, rather than both

[Valefort]

Well, no. And they're not in danger, see the other thread.

[kleomenes]

The dispel fix has mostly been a good thing while the current dispel cap is debatable.

My take on it too. Dispel fix has been a good thing, but I wonder whether requiring CL 28 to avoid dispels is of as much benefit and instead, narrows build scope quite significantly, and whether CL25 as Steve suggests (or 26, or 27) might be a better target for the dispel cap (I'm not decided, I just wonder)

Dispel mobs were lessened as far as I understand it, but there's still a fair few flying round. You will meet a couple on an average run. You will get dispelled if you are sub CL28, and your character will have to deal with that.

My cleric was in effect a "gish" before the dispel bug fix (still was after! Still had 8 fighter levels). I recall when he was leveling in the late teens and early 20's and prone to being dispelled, one had to plan for it with recasts (often ran two full sets of buffs) and fighter provided a level of intrinsic endurance with the weapon focus feats. It was easy enough to turn on ICE and pop another divine power after being dispelled and make do until things calmed down. But it was a very strong PVE build and I wonder if other builds struggle in the same circumstances, with their session coming to an end even if they survive. I'm thinking of say paladins/rangers, without spellslots to spare for recasts, for example

I guess consumables can bridge the gap. That might be no bad thing.

Don't know!