Dispel vs Caster Level

[chad878262]

How are the characters who have a CL between 25 and 30 doing ?

Usually they have other tricks than spellcasting, like HiPS or other survivability abilities, also I've not encountered many dispelling mobs overall so this doesn't seem like an important issue for those builds. Where are the 'problematic' areas/mobs ?

except a wiz/at, as was mentioned in the AT thread, as the current system forces them to choose rogue or sd, rather than both

Arcane Trickster MUST chose rogue (or some other class granting SA dice.) You simply cannot build an AT with CL30 and still get HiPS. The AM class may help as you could possibly manage W/A/AT/AM, but I am not sure if it is possible to get Assassin and Archmage both within the 3b20, but even if it is you would get HiPS in mid to late epics and your max CL w/ 6 AM levels would be 29. If possible the split would end up W6/A8/AT10/AM6 w/ Spellpower III.

[mrm3ntalist]

A trip down memory lane

I didnt like the dispel fix, for two reasons
1. The first reason has to do with RP and mechanics. NWN aint PnP. Period. We try to include pnp as much as possible but i think by now, everyone should have realised that not everything can be brought from pnp to this online game. The dispel based on character, despite all its shortcomings it allowed for builds such as

Fighter/Druid eg Jaheira - http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Jaheira
Ranger14/Sorcerer9/Rogue4/HA1 http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dove_Falconhand
etc.

The above builds were perfectly viable in PnP. They were viable in the character level dispel. They are crap now...

The travesty of this fix is that while trying to make mechanics based more on PnP, we destroyed character concepts that in pnp would be perfectly viable. In a few words, we chose mechanics rather than Character concepts...

2. Time. As with some other suggestions, this was for me a waste of time. Once the new dispel system was implemented and despite all Rasael's hard work ( countless hours of work ), there were still bugs - and that is normal with any big change such as this. We still trying to fix issues with Dispels, Character CL, rebalance mobs and class. ALL this time spent for what? To destroy UMD builds ( I cant say that bugs me too much ), destroy character concepts such as the ones mentioned above and make casters more powerful.

Despite the reasons above being mentioned, the dispel fix had many supporters including the support of the head DMs at the time, which very actively contributed in the ongoing discussions. The fix was implemented and we all tried to support it after that.

However, CL is now very important. Allowing some leniance, ie lowering the dispel cap, is a slap in the face of all the RP builds and umd builds that got destroyed. What a lower dispel cap means is that Palemaster/Shadowdancer or FS/BG/FB and other similar combos will have NO consequence for dropping their CL. The most powerful caster builds would be allowed for more power...

That is a big NO from me. Since "we" wanted this dispel fix, we will have to accept it as is now. If a caster wants to multiclass with no spell progression classes, he should face the consequences, the same way the umd builds and those "RP" builds did. Otherwise, we can revert back to the old dispel system - which is not an option from me now becasue of time.

So no, those who dream of more power through multiclassing with non spell progression classes, will have to continue to dream. Lowering the number of dispels being cast in EVERY area, is enough.

[Blame The Rogue]

i understand why it was done. with the best intentions

i understand a lot of time was put into it

but after everything that i've read, i'd rather see it go back to the way it was

reverting to the old system is always a valid option, when it turns out, that system was actually better for a rp server

i hope staff is at least talking about this

[mrm3ntalist]

i understand why it was done. with the best intentions

i understand a lot of time was put into it

but after everything that i've read, i'd rather see it go back to the way it was

reverting to the old system is always a valid option, when it turns out, that system was actually better for a rp server

i hope staff is at least talking about this

There are no talks about this. I dont even want to ask the dev/admins etc to revert all the work done and do some more, in order to go back... It is TOO much to ask from volunteers.

[NegInfinity]

but after everything that i've read, i'd rather see it go back to the way it was

I'd rather not.

There should be a tradeoff for giving up couple of levels of casting power. And a rogue with umd shouldn't be able to go toe to toe with real mages.

It would be reasonable to request reduction of number of dispelling monsters, but not remove the dispell fix itself.

[mrm3ntalist]

It would be reasonable to request reduction of number of dispelling monsters, but not remove the dispell fix itself.

Already done

[Steve]

NEVER GO BACKWARDS!!!

But seriously, UMD using Character Level was total bollocks. Gishes using Character Level was bollocks.

If your Character is going to master the Art and become invincible by never succumbing to a dispel, then they should have to invest in it (CL above 25; CL 29+ for uber security).

Undispellable casters are powerful, but that does not mean they have no weaknesses. They must conserve power, unlike melee that have long term constant output.

What I'm enjoying to see and would rather see more of, is casting duration increases, on higher level spells (like the 33, 66, 99% casting on custom summons spells, and Raise Dead, etc). As well, Rest Timer increase.

I've always been of the opinion that toons should it be able to solo any Bosses that are their CR or higher. Period. The dispel bug fix helped bring this more to a reality (like it or not).

[chad878262]

Honestly I understand the frustration, I felt it too, my Ranger / Assassin at CL25 was simply not much fun to play anymore when being dependent on 3 buffs for AC and other buffs for AB. However, I disagree that the rule hurts server RP or needs to be reverted. Some builds are less viable, yes but some of the less viable builds used to really be over done. i.e. CL ~ 21 Divine and Arcane gishes that were undispellable melee gods. For the most part they are still melee gods, but many of them have to actually chose either EDM OR Expose Weakness/Evasion which is at least a little bit of a hit. Or Sacred Fists that only had 17 levels of actual caster progression (also CL21) and were also undispellable. It is a good thing overall IMO for RP in that gishes are actually forced to RP as less accomplished casters if they want more melee / non-caster progression classes/PRC's. They can no longer be undispellable AND mostly melee focused, it's one or the other. CL25 would allow for more build diversity, but it would also re-introduce the massive disparity between Arcane/Divine gishes and everyone else. If you want a HiPS mage, you can still build one (and have CL30), if you want an AT you can still have one at full CL, but not with HiPS...for that you can still get CL28 though, which is not the end of the world.

The only builds that truly are no longer quite as viable is the ones that were heavily reliant on UMD and the ones that were built to have less than ~29 caster levels such as the Ranger/Assassin and the SF build discussed above. Arcane Trickster, as has been mentioned can still be a very effective class and honestly, if you are in stealth you should pick your targets better to not get spammed with dispels (walking by that one mob with three Frost Giant Mystics IS an option). You simply can't have it all and the new system has added some additional building 'rules' that create a decent challenge for those of us who like to come up with RP and mechanical concepts. As always if you are only worried about the RP nothing says you have to get to CL30 since you should be RP'ing with others and in a group it is not overly difficult to avoid dispels.

[Blame The Rogue]

i take it that means prior versions of the server prior to these changes aren't saved as backups?

[Calodan]

Already done

It is still a bit heavy. I go through too much and my gold consumption has gone up 3 fold. Sharpteeth often spawns at least two mystics and they dispel you immediately as well as the warlock. The list goes on too. More need to be removed.

Kory does not even go to the VOD anymore because I get dispelled 2-3 times per level. It is just stupid. UMD is now useless. It only works now and again and forget when you actually need it for a boss fight.

EDIT///If you really want to fix this make it so our PCs can make scrolls up to level 30. That is what is done in PnP and since you wanted to move this to PnP so badly then you need to sell out to it and give us the full Monty on scrolls. Wait....since WE AS A COMMUNITY WANTED PnP UMD AND DISPELS WE NEED FULL SCROLL CRAFTING........ For the record I am not against this fix it is fine I just think there should be the option to spend gold on better scrolls for higher levels. Rogues specifically rely heavily on this skill we just nuked with a fix.

[Akroma666]

Hey QC, it seems most people want to see AT builds come back, or Gish in general.

Why not do the simple fix and actually have assassin spell book have an option to be arcane spell progression instead? Even if you cut it down by a few levels, it still allows for a viable build to do AT/Caster/assain/DSM.

[Valefort]

Yeah a nearly 30 CL wizard with 10d6 sneak attack or more and HiPS seems like a sane idea.

Hey QC, it seems most people do not want more power given to arcanes, or casters in general.

Trust me I'm the voice of the people.

[Calodan]

Hey QC, it seems most people do not want more power given to arcanes, or casters in general.

The power was never affected for casters. In fact this fix just forced those casters to get more powerful instead and stop using fun semi viable builds that are no longer viable because no one in their right mind builds their character to be flawed. It is not true human nature. Yes there are those "WEIRDOS" out there that like getting pummeled but we know that they just enjoy punishment if so...... *insert innuendo here*.............

In fact Kory was one of those. His build was FvS/R/WM but now is just FvS/R. He could still be Morded and often was by just about everyone. Was not effective in PvP since was subpar FvS build in the first place. Was not a world beater in PvE because again sub par FvS build. He is now much more powerful and far more effective and will change balance of the PvE he goes into from here on in since he is now full 30 CL with Evasion and Expose Weakness still. Never actually need UMD now either and furthermore I dropped ICE and he is still more powerful than the tanky do some crit damage now and again Kory.

This fix just further made melee harder too since cross classing for UMD was one of the few ways to make a melee build viable here. I get that people were pissy about those F/FB/WM combos but those are glass cannons. In PvE they get wrecked and can only kill a couple of the bosses unlike oh Monks, Bards, Favored and the list goes on and on.

I get that reverting is NOT HAPPENING. What we need to do is move forward and fix melee and give us the ability through player driven RP and shops to purchase level 30 scrolls via player mechanics. I do not see a problem with this since only Warlocks can now deceive items to make scrolls and wands out of their class. If you want a level 30 holy sword you are going to have to get it from a Pally (Because they hand these out like candy....Have you tried getting a scroll from a druid? OMG don't. I suspect getting wands and scrolls from Holy rollers will be much the same)

[chad878262]

*goes to QC forums to recommend Assassin granting arcane caster levels, increasing DSM to full caster progression and making AK and DS full caster progression while we're at it... then goes to NWN2DB later to build a Wiz/Assn/EK/AT with CL30, Hips, PTWF, 8d6 SA, 10 apr and DC 30 death attack*

Just kidding, not going to do that...sorry.

[Kauaiian]

[quote="NegInfinity]
Snip
There should be a tradeoff for giving up couple of levels of casting power. And a rogue with umd shouldn't be able to go toe to toe with real mages.
Snip.[/quote]

This. Why? Because it makes sense.