The life of a gimpy rogue: A few tiny suggestions.

[AC81]

Reasons you do not see rogues often.

1. The starter level area is undead. You lose.
2. High spot monsters later on. Some reason monsters have 50 spot yet 0 spell craft.
3. Way to much has sneak immunity. Almost every mid level dungeon has something you can't hurt. Who wants that? No fun
4. Saves suck. You just get hammered
5. No one says we need a rogue. You can bash chests and traps don't threaten or damage people with buffs.
6. Gear is wonky. You have to carry two sets. Lame. Plus your rp sets.
7. Lack of prestige classes. Just don't feel there is cool roguey options
8. Gear dependent class. Gear doesn't exist for its needs.
9. Rp issue (but I'm not gonna say it out loud)
10. List goes on.


Though I love my character. .

You know what would be awesome. Bonus feets to replace the duplicate feats rogues always pick up form their other prestige classes. Like I have evasion twice. I have uncanny dodge twice. And so on.

1. All players can level very quickly using BG quests. Get 3 levels then corner sneak in the bandit caves, then hilltop ruins and you're away.
2. Agreed.
3. Heaps of things with crit immunity or physical damage % immunity too. Rogues aren't the only ones to suffer from this.
4. Ever tried being a fighter. Low will saves hurt. Build to fix the deficit.
5. Agreed.
6. Not anymore. Avernus ....
7. Really? Rogues have some awesome PrCs. Shadowdancer, Assassin, Invisible Blade ... IMO, Assassin is the most powerful non-caster PrC in the game.
8. No. See point 6.
9. Could be said for lots of things.
10. Such as? I'll add one - meta gaming sneaking rogues. Footsteps, buff effects visible on transition etc. Anymore?

Basically, I don't think rogues have it that bad. My first main was a rogue/sneaker, their biggest problem occurs at epic levels when they can't kill mobs in one flurry due to the inflated HP pool of mobs. You pretty much just need to pick which areas to solo and which ones you know you can't. For those you can't, bring a group.

[Face]

Have sleight of hand checks when opening a chest from stealth , Succes meens you stay hidden.

[Mallore]

Reasons you do not see rogues often.

1. The starter level area is undead. You lose.
2. High spot monsters later on. Some reason monsters have 50 spot yet 0 spell craft.
3. Way to much has sneak immunity. Almost every mid level dungeon has something you can't hurt. Who wants that? No fun
4. Saves suck. You just get hammered
5. No one says we need a rogue. You can bash chests and traps don't threaten or damage people with buffs.
6. Gear is wonky. You have to carry two sets. Lame. Plus your rp sets.
7. Lack of prestige classes. Just don't feel there is cool roguey options
8. Gear dependent class. Gear doesn't exist for its needs.
9. Rp issue (but I'm not gonna say it out loud)
10. List goes on.


Though I love my character. .

You know what would be awesome. Bonus feets to replace the duplicate feats rogues always pick up form their other prestige classes. Like I have evasion twice. I have uncanny dodge twice. And so on.

1. All players can level very quickly using BG quests. Get 3 levels then corner sneak in the bandit caves, then hilltop ruins and you're away.
2. Agreed.
3. Heaps of things with crit immunity or physical damage % immunity too. Rogues aren't the only ones to suffer from this.
4. Ever tried being a fighter. Low will saves hurt. Build to fix the deficit.
5. Agreed.
6. Not anymore. Avernus ....
7. Really? Rogues have some awesome PrCs. Shadowdancer, Assassin, Invisible Blade ... IMO, Assassin is the most powerful non-caster PrC in the game.
8. No. See point 6.
9. Could be said for lots of things.
10. Such as? I'll add one - meta gaming sneaking rogues. Footsteps, buff effects visible on transition etc. Anymore?

Basically, I don't think rogues have it that bad. My first main was a rogue/sneaker, their biggest problem occurs at epic levels when they can't kill mobs in one flurry due to the inflated HP pool of mobs. You pretty much just need to pick which areas to solo and which ones you know you can't. For those you can't, bring a group.

I love my rogue. My fighter was super easy to level. Don't take this as complaining just observations


A note about number 1. Be a newb to this server. You don't know that. There is no guide saying that. What there is a map you load in and it says cr1. It basically says start here.

A lot of the best averus gear is assisassn. You need UmD for it. They didn't mark it rogue or assisassn.

Also there is some fun pnp tech gear not in the game.

Crit immunity also screws rogues big time. And percent damage immunity is not the same as no damage. in fact it's apples and oranges. One is no damage. The other is percent. I would love my sneak attack at low and mid level just been percent reduction instead of nothing.

Assisassn is an evil prc. Sorry, even if they changed it for ooc reasons.

Anyways the list does go on

11 lack of self buffs for solo survival ability. Though this is result of class... So yeah
12. Lack of hats with two feathers in it.
13. Thieves can't is busted. Literally conversation I had with a rogue. "Where is the safe". Players saw. "Where on the safe". Geeeee thanks game.
14. Can't tumble through monsters so you can get to sneak attack in tight hallways.
15. Flanking seams wonky. Can't sneak attack them if they face you even if flanked by people half the time.
16. Undead.
17. Death spells. They are all fort or will.
18. Should be able to see invis per the rules of spot with enough ranks. Can't much less hear them.
19. Agro. Not like tanks can hold it. So that bad turns and death spells you. Happens way to often to be funny.
20. List goes on. Though will get silly.

[Mallore]

Have sleight of hand checks when opening a chest from stealth , Succes meens you stay hidden.

That's a cool idea.

[Face]

And yes some more prc's would be nice cous atm all you can realy build with is assassin SD wilderniss stalker and invis blade maybe GFK but that class is nerfed as it doesnt get his ghost sight and its one of his signature feats.

[AC81]

@ Mallore:
No offense mate, but a lot of points you raise are 'problems' for every class. The reason I have problems inside quote marks is that I don't view them as errors or bugs, rather it's how the game should work.
You talk of crit immunes and no damage. Epic Precision. If you're a sneak reliant rogue and you don't take this feat then what do you want me to say? No such feat exists for fighters who face crit immunes or damage immunity. I'm on my phone so I'll address this more accurately later. But don't confuse 'all classes weaknesses' with 'rogue only weaknesses'.

[AC81]

A note about number 1. Be a newb to this server. You don't know that. There is no guide saying that. What there is a map you load in and it says cr1. It basically says start here.

A lot of the best averus gear is assisassn. You need UmD for it. They didn't mark it rogue or assisassn.

Also there is some fun pnp tech gear not in the game.

Crit immunity also screws rogues big time. And percent damage immunity is not the same as no damage. in fact it's apples and oranges. One is no damage. The other is percent. I would love my sneak attack at low and mid level just been percent reduction instead of nothing.

Assisassn is an evil prc. Sorry, even if they changed it for ooc reasons.

Anyways the list does go on

11 lack of self buffs for solo survival ability. Though this is result of class... So yeah
12. Lack of hats with two feathers in it.
13. Thieves can't is busted. Literally conversation I had with a rogue. "Where is the safe". Players saw. "Where on the safe". Geeeee thanks game.
14. Can't tumble through monsters so you can get to sneak attack in tight hallways.
15. Flanking seams wonky. Can't sneak attack them if they face you even if flanked by people half the time.
16. Undead.
17. Death spells. They are all fort or will.
18. Should be able to see invis per the rules of spot with enough ranks. Can't much less hear them.
19. Agro. Not like tanks can hold it. So that bad turns and death spells you. Happens way to often to be funny.
20. List goes on. Though will get silly.

I was once a newb on this server. I found the quests by exploring my environment. I wasn't lucky enough to have a complete quest guide and list on the forum at the time either ...

You may need UMD to use some gear, lucky rogues have UMD as a class skill and get a whopping 8 +int skill points per class level. I think most rogues can spare the 12 UMD points needed to cross-class items.

Crit-immunes plus damage reduction may actually hurt those big-hitting fighters more than rogues. At least rogues have Epic Precision (if you don't then ... well, l2p issue), possibly Epic Dodge and possibly HiPS. Fighters just have to stand there, wear their opponents down and take a beating while doing it. My point, rogues at least have a feat to use. Others don't.

Assassin has been changed on this server. You don't need to be labelled an assassin to take the prc. Powerful prc made even better - easy.

11. This is a problem for every class that doesn't have a Caster Level.
12. Not sure about this ... are you talking about being a one-trick pony? Rogues are versatile. As are most classes. If you build for one strength and many weaknesses, don't be surprised when your pc gets shut down in certain instances.
13. Thieve's Cant is broken? Hmm, so is Fighter's Cant, Swashbuckler's Cant, Barbarian's Cant .... err, oh wait. They all don't get a super-special language all to themselves.
14. Neither can anyone else with tumble. I'd love to see monks doing this to get flanking bonuses or swashbucklers or fighters. But again, it isn't a rogue-only problem.
15. Flanking works. Just not if you aren't, you know, on their flanks. You can't flank someone if they're looking at you.
16. Epic Precision.
17. True. Again, not a rogue-only problem.
18. Is this true? Sounds okay I guess, it also sounds like PnP, which we are not. But again, Spot isn't rogue-only, so it isn't a rogue-only problem.
19. 'Tanks' don't hold aggro. The AI cheats and will usually attack the most dangerous/damaging opponents. That means rogues and toons with power attack. If I want to hold a monsters attention, I turn on Enhanced Improved Power Attack, put on my towershield, use displacement cloaks and mirror images and let others kill it - others like your rogue, who should be flanking and cutting it to ribbons. Group solution!
20. Go on ...

Sorry to sound argumentative. Rogues aren't super strong (ala Favoured Souls) but they've got great flavour, are really versatile and can be awesome in a group. You've just gotta jag a group that appreciates their abilities and lets them do their thing (e.g. scout, traps, locks, flank, etc)

[Face]

Flanking lets say gaints is a pain 9 out of 10 times when you are in there flank you dont get a SA and wil need to hips hells i even had it happen when derectly behind them....

And thiefs cant mabe special but thats no reason why it has to be broken.

And yes rogues get a feats to use like hips and epic precision but if you want to be able to hide you wil walk around in about 30 ac so when you come out of hips evry xvart and there mother wil attack you and not the fighter tank with his 45 ac , And epic precision is a must have but you wil need 10 rogue levels and need to be level 21 so its only handy after you grinded half the server for about 12 weeks.

[Tsidkenu]

Giants are barbarians with improved uncanny dodge. You need 4+ HD levels in rogue classes than they have to sneak attack them

[Face]

Giants are barbarians with improved uncanndy dodge. You need 4+ HD levels in rogue classes than they have to sneak attack them

So why can i SA them coming out of stealth but not when i run to there flank?

[Tsidkenu]

Because Improved Uncanny Dodge applies to flanking attacks, not attacks from stealth/concealment.

[Face]

Wel then that is another pain in the but for rogues thank you for pointing this out , So we have SA immune mobs and mobs you cant flank unless you out level them if i get this corect

[Tsidkenu]

Those giants should probably have less barbarian levels and more Giant racial HD levels to even it out a bit, but that's something for the area designers to decide

[AC81]

Flanking lets say gaints is a pain 9 out of 10 times when you are in there flank you dont get a SA and wil need to hips hells i even had it happen when derectly behind them....

And thiefs cant mabe special but thats no reason why it has to be broken.

And yes rogues get a feats to use like hips and epic precision but if you want to be able to hide you wil walk around in about 30 ac so when you come out of hips evry xvart and there mother wil attack you and not the fighter tank with his 45 ac , And epic precision is a must have but you wil need 10 rogue levels and need to be level 21 so its only handy after you grinded half the server for about 12 weeks.

A lot of this is just plain incorrect now. You can't complain about an awesome feat like Epic Precision requiring 10 rogue levels and needing 21 total levels. Many other high-end feats operate this way. If you build poorly (e.g. no epic precision or HiPS) or have bad combat strategies (e.g. picking enemies that you can't sneak attack or flank) then you really can't blame anyone but yourself. Take enough of the right classes and feats and in epics you will REALLY shine, like a lot of other classes.
Flanking - get in the right position and have enough levels to actually flank. (e.g. enough to out-do their imp. uncanny dodge). If you can't get these levels, then don't try flanking them!
The AC argument now is just a wash. Rogues can now have their cake and eat it too, in regards to AC vs Stealth. If you had've said this before the Avernus shop (or even the Docks shop) your argument may have held some weight. But not now. Sure, the gear is expensive, but already players are popping up with "Avernus Shop/Loot Run" toons (thanks 100% rcr) who are designed to get to the Avernus shop without fighting and use a super high appraise to drastically reduce prices. Add to that, crafting will be implemented soon. If I hear another player of a sneak say something about choosing between high AC or high stealth I might gouge out my eyes. Also, on this - for the vast majority of the server you don't need high hide/move silently. You just don't.
Rogues SHOULD grab the best two feats in the game - HiPS and Epic Dodge. Epic Precision is broken and allows ALL death attack dice to register. Those three feats, although gotten late, make any half-competent player look very good. Again, sure some things need a few tweaks here and there, but rogues really aren't strugglers - they're just late bloomers.

[Legofsalmon]

I think there are a mixture of good points that deserve attention and some that aren't as critical. Sneak immunity stuff is just a thing that exists and a non issue. Yeah it can be very hard for rogue heavy classes to solo. At times but it's not all that bad.

That's why my main wish is to make their group play all the more desired. Rogues aren't intended to be solo power houses in dnd but having one with their diverse skillsets is supposed to make life much easier. Keep updating and designing areas and dungeons to let them do their thang and be rewarded. (More epic traps, locks, special pickpocket goodies!).

That said the pickpocket script just doesn't seem worth rescuing. it's a fairly useless skill as it is and you can't grief people with it.

I find the comment about thieves cant not working being fine because barbarians don't get a language in poor taste though. I think this thread is a good opportunity to highlight where we can look to increasing some of the potential fun and satisfaction for Rogues, not about increasing their flat power.