The life of a gimpy rogue: A few tiny suggestions.

[Face]

I wil go find this new shop then but i read you need over 70 hide-ms to go undetected by all mobs on the server and even with 50+ hide-ms i get spotted sooooo mutch by alot of mobs all over the server so i walk around in full sneak gear and that nets me 30 ac and 60+ hide-ms.

Bin playing on and of on this server for about 5 years if not longer and i played many sneaks and you wil get pigion holed into rogue invis blade assassin to get that extra ac or you go something ranged with hips and poop loads of ab that you cant call a rogue no more or you go with a build like rogue wilderniss stalker assassin or SD.

Prove me wrong though and send me a good rogue build and when i say rogue i meen rogue not a bard.

[AC81]

I wil go find this new shop then but i read you need over 70 hide-ms to go undetected by all mobs on the server and even with 50+ hide-ms i get spotted sooooo mutch by alot of mobs all over the server so i walk around in full sneak gear and that nets me 30 ac and 60+ hide-ms.

Bin playing on and of on this server for about 5 years if not longer and i played many sneaks and you wil get pigion holed into rogue invis blade assassin to get that extra ac or you go something ranged with hips and poop loads of ab that you cant call a rogue no more or you go with a build like rogue wilderniss stalker assassin or SD.

Prove me wrong though and send me a good rogue build and when i say rogue i meen rogue not a bard.

What do you want your rogue build to do? Like I said, and like you must know, they're versatile. I've played 3 rogue characters into high epics and didn't have a problem with any - and none of them were a R16/As9/IB5.

[Face]

I wil go find this new shop then but i read you need over 70 hide-ms to go undetected by all mobs on the server and even with 50+ hide-ms i get spotted sooooo mutch by alot of mobs all over the server so i walk around in full sneak gear and that nets me 30 ac and 60+ hide-ms.

Bin playing on and of on this server for about 5 years if not longer and i played many sneaks and you wil get pigion holed into rogue invis blade assassin to get that extra ac or you go something ranged with hips and poop loads of ab that you cant call a rogue no more or you go with a build like rogue wilderniss stalker assassin or SD.

Prove me wrong though and send me a good rogue build and when i say rogue i meen rogue not a bard.

What do you want your rogue build to do? Like I said, and like you must know, they're versatile. I've played 3 rogue characters into high epics and didn't have a problem with any - and none of them were a R16/As9/IB5.

You must have some realy sick gear then and plz help a scrub builder out and link me that build of yours.

[AC81]

Actually, my sneak gear wasn't anything great. I've gotten my hands on good sneak gear recently through trading and nothing I had then was anywhere near as good as what can be bought at Avernus.

My three builds were all different (I got bored easy):
Ranged - Halfling, R16/As9/EA5. Used a crossbow, became less viable in epics like most ranged pcs. Was devastating in a group, it was like he was shooting grenades instead of xbow bolts.

Dual wield - Halfling, R19/As8/Monk3. Dual wield one kama, one dagger. Used parry, epic dodge and hips to avoid hits. 14d6 sneak attack damage. HiPS, attack from stealth, feint, activate parry, riposte attacks would land sneaks, epic dodge took care of the few hits that sneak through. HiPS, rinse, repeat. Pretty fun build, but lots of micro-managing.

Str-Rogue - Half Elf, R19/F4/STA4/NWN3. Max strength, sword and board, full plate wearer. Uses the following feats: Improved Knockdown, Feint, Disarm, Expose, Shield Slam (DC was around 37 or 38 I think). 14d6 sneak damage. Feinted and Dazed opponents were open to sneak damage. High 40's AC, groups loved him, he'd let everyone get easy hits and opponents were on the ground a lot (knockdown and slam). Disarm helps a lot - I love that feat. Again though, lots of micro-managing.

There, three very different builds. All very rogue heavy. None of them really a 'classic' split. My hide/move silently was never great, but I never really got spotted consistently and I played some of these when the spotter script was in full swing. I also played a pure ranger into high epics. His stealth was stupid high and he was a strength build. There's many ways to build an awesome rogue ... they aren't as good solo as other classes, but they aren't terrible. And in a group they are crazy good IMO. Anyway, we could argue/debate all day long and not solve anything.

My point - do I even have one now? Gone are the days when you had to focus on either stealth or AC. You can have both eventually. It's also sensible to have a back up plan for when you DO get spotted. Build with epic dodge, parry, use ethereal boots ... something. Rogues are good if built well, just like every other class. They also have weaknesses, just like every other class. Just gotta deal with it.

[Face]

Thanks i wil go play around with this in the builder.

[Mallore]

Those giants should probably have less barbarian levels and more Giant racial HD levels to even it out a bit, but that's something for the area designers to decide

So a rogue who goes to fight Giants at CR can't use their class affects. But has to wait till they are over CR. Seams like an issue.

Also though even when you are it's hard to flank in certian places because you get to close it reads you I guess inside the monsters base so no flanking bonus to hit or sneak attack. Really only happens with super large monsters. Sometimes. You sorta end up in them.

[Snarfy]

I think there are a mixture of good points that deserve attention and some that aren't as critical. Sneak immunity stuff is just a thing that exists and a non issue. Yeah it can be very hard for rogue heavy classes to solo. At times but it's not all that bad.

That's why my main wish is to make their group play all the more desired. Rogues aren't intended to be solo power houses in dnd but having one with their diverse skillsets is supposed to make life much easier. Keep updating and designing areas and dungeons to let them do their thang and be rewarded. (More epic traps, locks, special pickpocket goodies!).

That said the pickpocket script just doesn't seem worth rescuing. it's a fairly useless skill as it is and you can't grief people with it.

~snip~

I think this thread is a good opportunity to highlight where we can look to increasing some of the potential fun and satisfaction for Rogues, not about increasing their flat power.

What Legofsalmon said. Rogues don't need more power. Dealing with content and leveling is a pain, yes, but the same could be said for many classes. That being said, I sincerely hope that the content never gets universally scaled up in difficulty.

But, I believe things do fall short in the fun department for rogues in several specific areas. Scripts and skill penalties in certain zones that specifically single out and penalize rogue-types being the primary culprit.

Riddle me this: name any skills, other than sleight of hand, hide, and move silent, that enjoy either a script or zone based penalty designed to mitigate them? You cant, because there are none. Just think about that for a moment.

Now a small comparison: Wizard/Sorcerers primary skills are concentration and spellcraft. High investment in these skills is mechanically necessessary for wizards/sorcs to successfully cast/identify magic, and concentration is their bread and butter skill, so to speak. Currently, there are no scripts or areas with penalties to concentration enabled. Casters are free to dance with steely minds through volcanic areas, battling hordes of boulder hurling giants near magma filled pools, and never have to worry about the engine hitting them with an arbitrary concentration penalty.

Conversely, a rogue can find the dankest, dustiest dungeon to explore, but no matter how darkly lit it may be.... there's always a chance that the orc facing the opposite corner picking his nose might spontaneously detect the rogue... because there's a blanket mechanical penalty(or detection boost) in the zone. Speaking of picking noses, or pockets, or pilfering in general, the rogue has that to contend with too, as he knows he'll likely A: get dragged out of stealth the moment he sticks his finger into anything(ohhhh myyy!), or B: get metagamed by a script that has never functioned properly and serves no real purpose, except to make a pick-pocketers' life miserable perhaps.

I have more where that came from... but I'll leave it for later, since it's too early for typing, and I need a coffee.

*Post-coffee edit* - What I'm trying to say here is that alleviating the relatively small issues I mentioned in my original post might go a long way towards improving the overall quality of life for rogues. There are even other rogue skills that come to mind when speaking of nerfs, such as set traps, and the nerfing of the use of epic traps that Calodan mentioned. Basically, like the players of any builds, regardless of class, rogue-types just want to reap the benefits and enjoyment of investing so heavily in their class-skills, and not be penalized for such by semi-functional scripts or blanket detection adjustments to zones. Rogues put everything into stealth(aka: their bread and butter), so why are they the only class that gets singled out by scripts and the like? Where is this bias coming from, and why has it been accepted, more or less, as the status-quo so readily?

13. Thieves can't is busted. Literally conversation I had with a rogue. "Where is the safe". Players saw. "Where on the safe". Geeeee thanks game.

Thieves' Cant works horribly, there's no two-ways about it.

I find the comment about thieves cant not working being fine because barbarians don't get a language in poor taste though.

Yes, weak argument. But, to be fair, 'Cant' is a tricky one to make functional, as it's not really a language, per-se, but more of a method of speaking in slang(and sometimes signaling with hands).

From the wiki:

This hidden language consisted more of slangs and innuendos more than an actual language. The main use of thieves' cant was to communicate rogue activities, such as banditry, burglary, finding marks, and discussing loot.

(There's even a small dictionary linked there: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/T ... dictionary )