Challenge Rating:

[Calodan]

JEGS is a poor way to judge the CR you can handle on BG... ~CR24 or so in JEGS is probably about the power level of ~CR28-30 on BG. Would be great if JEGS were updated with CR monsters that were found in BGtSCC so you could accurately test your concept from level 1-30 and gain an understanding of what type of monsters you can handle and which ones you will need help with. Newer players especially would benefit and there'd be a lot less frustration as you continually die as you learn the server.

I find that if the build can handle the Balor Lords you can handle the server itself at about any level. I find that the BUNNY and the DROW party are the equivalent of trying to survive the 6th layer of hell with DM Wagner running the event. So if anyone knows a build that can murderlate that setting of CR on the JEGS let me have it!

[Mallore]

Can we replace this ability with an appraise check? Give more use to a skill.


Also I do not consider knowing a persons rough challenge rating meta gaming. I can list a dozen arguments how its not meta gaming and in fact hiding it is meta gaming. You can just in life tell if your in over your head with certain people. sometimes we refer to this as "awe" in real life. I do not know if listing the reasons how its appropriate for the skill and ability here is allowed.

But I want this to stay, though I think a fair ground is a DC check with the appraise skill.

Hope that is at least considered before just removing a very realistic, and important feature of the game. That also really helps with leveling and going on adventures for those who play some low level toons. =)

[Face]

It is not realistic at all....2 days a go my level 29 wizard was mistaken for a low level rogue just cous he fighting beetles with a dagger.

[Eclypticon]

It's been suggested before: have the SCRY auto/default Off all the options, and let Players click them on as they please.

Essentially opposite as it exists now.

This is what I suggest. I'm not going to support all out removal since there are players that use it for grouping.

Challenge rating is a non issue for me and it is not accurate all the time. A well built lower level toon with the right wands and consumables can mop the floor with an over powering challenge rating character in PvP.

[metaquad4]

Can we replace this ability with an appraise check? Give more use to a skill.


Also I do not consider knowing a persons rough challenge rating meta gaming. I can list a dozen arguments how its not meta gaming and in fact hiding it is meta gaming. You can just in life tell if your in over your head with certain people. sometimes we refer to this as "awe" in real life. I do not know if listing the reasons how its appropriate for the skill and ability here is allowed.

But I want this to stay, though I think a fair ground is a DC check with the appraise skill.

Hope that is at least considered before just removing a very realistic, and important feature of the game. That also really helps with leveling and going on adventures for those who play some low level toons. =)

This is my thought as well. Have a spot (or a mix of spot, sense motive, and search) check vs something (a mix of hide, bluff, and intimidate perhaps) to sort of "size" the character or NPC up. Integrate it into the appraise system.

If you fail the DC, it could give back a false response (basically, your character misjudges) and if it succeeds, it could give you back something similar to the CR system (which is not perfect anyway, since a level 21 who is competent could easily kick the arse of a level 30 who is incompetent).

[Shad]

Who would want to metagame - would do it. World is big enough. Scry is useful to find party of similar level.
Challenge rating in examine is a flavor, and improves immersion for me. It represent what impression a foe makes at my PC.

p.s. but if it would be possible to allow players to hide Their CR in their description - it should solve this.

[Lux]

Challenge rating in examine is a flavor, and improves immersion for me. It represent what impression a foe makes at my PC.

It's not a fair representation of power, though. It's something like five levels below to five levels above. As Eclypticon said,

A well built lower level toon with the right wands and consumables can mop the floor with an over powering challenge rating character in PvP.

Can you really tell how powerful someone is just by looking at them? An unwarded spellcaster is pretty weak. Are you supposed to smell their sheer strength in connection with the weave with 0 spellcraft? In the same way, shouldn't powerhouses with sharp objects be treated with some caution by default? This carries over into roleplaying styles and interpretations and away from my original point, which was that this change circumvents the scry feature to hide your level, and that +/- 5 levels isn't an accurate measurement of power.

[Mallore]

Can you really tell how powerful someone is just by looking at them? An unwarded spellcaster is pretty weak. Are you supposed to smell their sheer strength in connection with the weave with 0 spellcraft? In the same way, shouldn't powerhouses with sharp objects be treated with some caution by default? This carries over into roleplaying styles and interpretations and away from my original point, which was that this change circumvents the scry feature to hide your level, and that +/- 5 levels isn't an accurate measurement of power.

Can you really tell how powerful someone is just by looking at them? Yes. Absoultly with no doubt you can get a very clear picture of a person, life style, and demeanor. This is first impressions in life.

We have to remember our characters are not running around butt naked. That +4 plate armor you have says a ton about you, it is not plain and simple, it is fancy, its expensive, it is ornate and covered in wards. People need to remember that equipment in Faerun is super detailed and stands out. Unless an item says in its description "this is ordinary looking" it is not. A mage walking in his robes can tell you a lot, by the quality of the robes, her wealthy, her position.

Other treasures on characters, and where do they keep those 400,000 gold coins anyways?

The lavish epic rings, the pendants that are worn.

This does not even get into the Stats of a character, a 22 charisma character is a paragon of beauty and charm, they inspire awe. This is reflective in knowing their power.

I can go on with examples, but my point to make it short, a number of factors go into a characters mind and out comes your first impression. In the world where magic is real, it is no stretch of the imagination that a talented adventurer couldn't figure "hey that guy is weak, or that gal can wipe the floor with me". In the end, I feel ignoring these factors is by far a worst form of meta gaming then reading a single phrase or number. For it also breaks the rule of play your sheet.

On a side note of fair representation of power because its +/- 5, sure it is, anything is fair when you know the scale, its just as fair as +/- 3 or 10. It is setting base lines and as long as that is clearly known you are good to go!

[Shad]

So in the end, maybe its not presence of CR that is not feeling right, its mechanics of +/- 5 behind it what is?

I saw before mechnahics of fame and power rating system. It used points that could be awarded on events, tournaments, based on involvement.
For example, I remember one paladin recently played here. She was well, not very capable mechanically. But she could convincingly RP a leader, and politically got power surprisingly fast. That may be represented as CR too (and to some merit people just write their CHA in description often already)

[Mallore]

Gotta remember CR is a mechanical tool for DMs to build encounters in PNP for a group of 4 to 6 adventures.

A king can be CR 7 but because he's such a great leader he is not the problem when you try to fight him. It's the CR 26 knight guards he has. Which multi of them would be like CR 33.



CR is meant to be purely about challange system.

[NegInfinity]

After playing a bit more today, I gotta say that I really don't like this change.

It kills a very important feeling of mystery and something unexpected.... it also kills all the situation where you underestimate/overestimate someone's or somethings power.

I think it is a bad idea and it should be reverted back asap. CR on area transation MIGHT make some sense, but not this. It is simply metagamey and nothing more. Also, it occupies half of the character description's window, shifting good portion of biography and ACTUAL character description down.

Please, revert this back.

[Shad]

What of mysteries and something unexpected on new areas then? If anything.. For when I explored the server very first time, not at all long ago, so I remember how it was, I felt a bit annoyed at markers of danger rating near the areas: when your PC see goblin shaman, all in amulets and alike, its higher danger rating is well obvious (even though level of GFX details don't allow player to see it), but to look at the road and know exactly how skilled undead in the grave yard would be.. thats not it.
It felt like in sandbox.

[arakes99]

OOC information never helps immersion.

[NegInfinity]

What of mysteries and something unexpected on new areas then? If anything.. For when I explored the server very first time, not at all long ago, so I remember how it was, I felt a bit annoyed at markers of danger rating near the areas: when your PC see goblin shaman, all in amulets and alike, its higher danger rating is well obvious (even though level of GFX details don't allow player to see it), but to look at the road and know exactly how skilled undead in the grave yard would be.. thats not it.
It felt like in sandbox.

I'm fine without any CR messages on area transitions - because your character can run away, most of the time. If someone REEEALLY needs those, I can live with with them, because I don't spend a lot of time looking at area transitions.

However, having CR rating on every single characters is too much and seriously ruins the fun.