Vampire subrace

[gedweyignasia]

Obviously this would be subject to some very serious balance and PvP discussion, and I only ask because I expect an overwhelmingly negative response.

For this post, feel free to disregard the rule against dismissing a suggestion; this is why I'm asking.

This could be implemented as an ECL subrace or a Prestige Class that changes the user's race & appearance. The SRD reference for vampires can be found here. This could prove useful for inspiration, but is clearly too powerful to be used as-is. Because this is a monstrous character type, players would not need the vampire's consent to engage it in PvP.


Please feel free to discuss PvP issues, balance, why this is a horrible, horrible idea, etc below. A simple "no" is sufficient if you don't have the energy to deal with my nonsense. (Moderators: Please tolerate negative responses; I know what I'm asking for here.)


Edit:
To clarify, if you're outside during the daytime as a vampire, the first round you're dazed, the second round you're destroyed.

[chad878262]

I think before balance is even discussed this would need DM discussion as to if they want a player Undead from a server lore/story perspective.

[Blackman D]

most of what you said aside, the problem is that its undead and regardless of the fact its a monstrous race (because one could say that about orcs) it is more an NPC race, any undead race has serious issues with being allowed to be played, thats why no one can play liches even though its something that you can achieve, much like being turned into a vampire is doable (or mummy or damn near any other type of undead)

[TheLier]

Oh boy....I will type out why is this a horrible idea at home

[Endelyon]

I'd just like to point out that this discussion and poll were brought up by a developer, so feel free to go wild.

Moderators should note that this thread is "in-bounds" until someone breaks one of the main forum rules.

[Calodan]

I would rather see Yuan-ti put back in first. I would rather see +3 ECL races get their stuff that makes them +3.

[NegInfinity]

Obviously this would be subject to some very serious balance and PvP discussion, and I only ask because I expect an overwhelmingly negative response.

For this post, feel free to disregard the rule against dismissing a suggestion; this is why I'm asking.

This could be implemented as an ECL subrace or a Prestige Class that changes the user's race & appearance. The SRD reference for vampires can be found here. This could prove useful for inspiration, but is clearly too powerful to be used as-is. Because this is a monstrous character type, players would not need the vampire's consent to engage it in PvP.


Please feel free to discuss PvP issues, balance, why this is a horrible, horrible idea, etc below. A simple "no" is sufficient if you don't have the energy to deal with my nonsense. (Moderators: Please tolerate negative responses; I know what I'm asking for here.)

May I suggest to check this out?:
http://sigil-nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Races
That's sigil races, apparently they implemented vampires as PRC now... earlier it was a race, with ECL +2 or something like that.

Also:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

I generally wouldn't mind things like that, except on one condition:

Permadeath for undead and outsiders. On the first death, any death, pvp or not and a cooldown (a week, for example) before you can try again.

You can't raise vampire or undead, and outsiders that walk material plane get permanently destroyed (except for devils, which are banished for 99 years to their home plane). Given the amount of people that walk around under true seeing, any weird creature probably won't make it very far from the starting area before it gets brutally destroyed in the name of greater good.

----
Speaking of which, all the monstrocities, undead, outsiders and all the likes of them usually have hefty ecl to compensate for their amazing abilities and immunities. For example, Sigil Devil I played had ECL+8. Meaning to get any combat experience you'd need to fight level 8 monsters with level 1 number of hitpoints and attacks. On BGTSCC something like that would be incredibly painful.

[NegInfinity]

To continue my earlier post, I think on bgtscc player vampires could pretty much be only suitable for DM events.

Meaning if a DM starts an event, they could try to recruit few players to play several monsters in the event, and they wouldn't be allowed to use them anywhere else.

Only in this kind of situation.

As a free-roaming character those kind of creatures will get destroyed by the nearest paladin/cleric/wizard/whatever.

[Blackman D]

unless they were in the UD, then they could join the school of necromancy

/shameless hypothetical promo

[Deathgrowl]

I feel people should be allowed to know the context by which this suggestion came up. On the IRC we were discussing whether or not new additions to the server being pushed out prematurely. During this discussion there was a question about how appropriate a feature was for the server (lore wise), and that some such new features are indeed not appropriate of the server, but still being added. Someone then jokingly said that they hoped vampires and celestials won't be added, as a bit of hyperbole. Because what has been added isn't mechanically a problem, but one of lore.

Ged said she'd definitely work on implementing vampires if it was decided that they could be added. So she was encouraged to make the suggestion here. The argument is that if then it can be mechanically balanced, we're apparently adding things that are inappropriate in lore context. So to prove a point I supported the encouragement of making this suggestion. Even though I very firmly believe it is a bad idea.

Endelyon said go wild. Lets be honest here. Letting people play undead characters in the populated and civilised areas of the Sword Coast is a ridiculous idea.

[Akroma666]

Cracks knuckles.

[Blackman D]

Endelyon said go wild. Lets be honest here. Letting people play undead characters in the populated and civilised areas of the Sword Coast is a ridiculous idea.

UD only race

/shameless UD hypothetical promo!

[TheLier]

Let me start with saying, that a concept like this won't work on a PW. A vampire's Rp, boundaries, etc. are numerous, and in my opinion would warrant constant DM oversight, just like in PnP.

If against all odds, they would be ever considered, they should be app only, with very strict IC and OOC requirments. Now, let's get to why I think this is very bad idea.

Let's start with mechanics, becuse I'm worse with that part. ECL+8 is horrible in PnP, even more so in nwn2. There is no leveling zones fit for this, where vampires would not meet with others, and would not die horribly. Even in UD, a vampire is something shunned and feared, and one would never stay in a settlement for long.

Their ablities and the whole negative level thing could be quite frustrating, as a vampire monk, for example, could land all their attacks, and a constant -2 levels per turn is quite something. (Vampire should be barred from several classes especially from ones like druid or monk).

Permadeath, should be enforced, as if a vampire truly dies, that is a game over for them. Apart from a few things which kill them instantly, they do have two hours to reach their coffin, but a vampire with a lair in the Sharpteeth could say goodbye if they die a few zones further, as they would not reach their coffin in time.

PvP: One word: Sunburst. That spell permakills a vampire, also, control undead etc. They should all work on vampire PCs, along with turn undead, smite everything. It would be a headache, and a reason of a lot of salt. Personally, I think a vampire would be weak in PvP compared to a toon with same XP, but potentionally much stronger (level 30 would mean level 38, awfully strong). It is a mess really.

RP reasons:

Where to start? Vampires are in their core, a monster race. More so then orcs, they are closer to devils then them, hence they must be (Lawful usually) evil. No exceptions, when you are turned, you turn. Also, note that a "level 1 vampire" is a very rare thing, as most vampires would create an offspring who is already outstanding, and not "just a guy". For example, a currently level 30 toon on the server would be reasonable.

Note, that vampires do not adventure, as it is quite dangerous for them, apart from magical means. They tend to operate via their connections and not personally. Even though not all DMs seem to consider toons as adventurers, many still do, and a vampire is certainly not one.

Let's ignore the fact that vampires would probably have a creator who controls their life, as all player chars must be new ones, or be terribly overpowered, as an old vampire is certainly something above most. If we add the "PCs are exceptional" rule, they are a being dangerous to the entire Coast alone, probably.

Day and night. Vampires should not be allowed on the surface, as first of all, they might just spawn into permadeath, if it is a day, second of all, it simply would make no sense, as reasons stated above. They would stay in their lair, until night falls.

I could start listing the potentional "goodly vampire" and such, but really. A vampire has a very strict RP in many senses. A very strict selecation should be made, but there would be a little point, as most vampires would not reach a level high enough not to be killed by traps, random mishaps or such.

As a final word, in my opinion, they are clearly not meant to be played in a PW enviroment. They have very strict RP, and mechanical boundaries, impossible to transfer to nwn2 in this form. A vampire is simply not fit to be a PC, as it was clearly not designed to be one, in any but PnP, enviroment, with a fitting campagin and party.

[NegInfinity]

I feel people should be allowed to know the context by which this suggestion came up. On the IRC we were discussing whether or not new additions to the server being pushed out prematurely. During this discussion there was a question about how appropriate a feature was for the server (lore wise), and that some such new features are indeed not appropriate of the server, but still being added. Someone then jokingly said that they hoped vampires and celestials won't be added, as a bit of hyperbole. Because what has been added isn't mechanically a problem, but one of lore.

Ged said she'd definitely work on implementing vampires if it was decided that they could be added. So she was encouraged to make the suggestion here. The argument is that if then it can be mechanically balanced, we're apparently adding things that are inappropriate in lore context. So to prove a point I supported the encouragement of making this suggestion. Even though I very firmly believe it is a bad idea.

Endelyon said go wild. Lets be honest here. Letting people play undead characters in the populated and civilised areas of the Sword Coast is a ridiculous idea.

There are graveyards, abandoned areas, and HUUUGE network of catacombs below the city of BG.

I think it would be interesting to have a player controlled vampire in events. Outside of events they would have ridiculously low life expectancy. I mean, even with creatures with polymorph abilities it would take one glance of a your friendly neighbourhood cleric/paladin passing through the area to figure out what they are.

Also, you can already summon a vampire/outsider, and control what they say. This can be loads of fun (you can have 2 or three creatures out in addition to your PC and can put on a quite a show), but I've also on a few occasions ran into a specific person abusing this.

The dude tried to act as storyteller - went invisible in low-level area, summoned undead and made them interact with lowbie characters with his undead.

[Garn Greymoon]

I think vampires are pretty plausible but if they are in the sun I'd like to see them take 1d6 damage per round minimum. Maybe some sort of feeding mechanic as well to start off with.

Remember the more diverse the evil v good players are the more interesting of a server we have.