Vampire subrace

[Eclypticon]

We had them on another server and they are hard for DMs to moderate the RP. It is too easy for many people to cross the line of acceptable, and we have restrictive rules that we didn't have there. Even if we get over the mechanical issues, you will find many folks have a hard time keeping in line with this one.

[Kauaiian]

While I think the idea is cool, along with liches, I can't see the server handling something like this mostly for the reasons listed by TheLiar.

[NegInfinity]

If against all odds, they would be ever considered, they should be app only, with very strict IC and OOC requirments.

That would go without saying, unless staff decided to turn the server into a much more fantastic settings (like sigil)

Let's start with mechanics, becuse I'm worse with that part. ECL+8 is horrible in PnP, even more so in nwn2.

The ECL+8 I mentioned earlier applied to devils, vampires have something much lower, judging by CR adjustment on d20srd, that would be ECL+2 (in addition to whatever previous race had)

However those kinds of creatures usually have numerous resistances that help with this ECL effect.

Vampire has permanent stoneskin on him/her/it with DR 10/magic or silver AND it has fast healing 5. Meaning you could, say, roll a fighter, grab a tower shield + improved combat expertise, and go straight into cr6 area where you'll tickle your opponent to death. A vampire will also have +6 to str, +4 to dex, +2 to int, wis and +4 to cha. It also has no consitution. Meaning, this kind of creature in smart player's hand can go toe-to-toe with foe that is is several levels above it quite easily.

Where to start? Vampires are in their core, a monster race. More so then orcs, they are closer to devils then them, hence they must be (Lawful usually) evil. No exceptions, when you are turned, you turn. Also, note that a "level 1 vampire" is a very rare thing, as most vampires would create an offspring who is already outstanding, and not "just a guy". For example, a currently level 30 toon on the server would be reasonable.
....
As a final word, in my opinion, they are clearly not meant to be played in a PW enviroment. They have very strict RP, and mechanical boundaries, impossible to transfer to nwn2 in this form. A vampire is simply not fit to be a PC, as it was clearly not designed to be one, in any but PnP, enviroment, with a fitting campagin and party.

Libris Mortis has loads of information on undead or vampires, but I think you might find it interesting to check out its information on necropolitans (page 115). Those could be good-aligned. Also, I believe it mentions good aligned liches as well..

The problem is those require specific settings and even undead societies. I think we don't have those available.

//Not promoting vampire PC, just trying to have a fun discussion here.

[Flasmix]

Melee has it hard enough. Adding a race immune to crits and sneak makes it worse.

[TheLier]

If against all odds, they would be ever considered, they should be app only, with very strict IC and OOC requirments.

That would go without saying, unless staff decided to turn the server into a much more fantastic settings (like sigil)

Let's start with mechanics, becuse I'm worse with that part. ECL+8 is horrible in PnP, even more so in nwn2.

The ECL+8 I mentioned earlier applied to devils, vampires have something much lower, judging by CR adjustment on d20srd, that would be ECL+2 (in addition to whatever previous race had)

However those kinds of creatures usually have numerous resistances that help with this ECL effect.

Vampire has permanent stoneskin on him/her/it with DR 10/magic or silver AND it has fast healing 5. Meaning you could, say, roll a fighter, grab a tower shield + improved combat expertise, and go straight into cr6 area where you'll tickle your opponent to death. A vampire will also have +6 to str, +4 to dex, +2 to int, wis and +4 to cha. It also has no consitution. Meaning, this kind of creature in smart player's hand can go toe-to-toe with foe that is is several levels above it quite easily.

Where to start? Vampires are in their core, a monster race. More so then orcs, they are closer to devils then them, hence they must be (Lawful usually) evil. No exceptions, when you are turned, you turn. Also, note that a "level 1 vampire" is a very rare thing, as most vampires would create an offspring who is already outstanding, and not "just a guy". For example, a currently level 30 toon on the server would be reasonable.
....
As a final word, in my opinion, they are clearly not meant to be played in a PW enviroment. They have very strict RP, and mechanical boundaries, impossible to transfer to nwn2 in this form. A vampire is simply not fit to be a PC, as it was clearly not designed to be one, in any but PnP, enviroment, with a fitting campagin and party.

Libris Mortis has loads of information on undead or vampires, but I think you might find it interesting to check out its information on necropolitans (page 115). Those could be good-aligned. Also, I believe it mentions good aligned liches as well..

The problem is those require specific settings and even undead societies. I think we don't have those available.

//Not promoting vampire PC, just trying to have a fun discussion here.

I might sound like an ass, but this server has little to no RP enforcement. This goes strictly against what a vampire is, as it requires near constant oversight. It would require quite a few rulings, and as we don't even have one on cosmology (!), I don't see this being a reality.

About ECL: I'm pretty sure that source said ECL+8, for "real" vampire, for a spawn it is ECL +2 or 3, but that being is a slave. Period. Works in a PnP party where you are a vampire+ spawns, but not on a PW.

[gedweyignasia]

Letting people play undead characters in the populated and civilised areas of the Sword Coast is a ridiculous idea.

So I actually mentioned it because the disaster-of-a-NWN1-server that I used to play on had PC vampires. (It was, like you might imagine, a giant PVP nightmare.) This is something I nag Endelyon about from time to time because I'm nostalgic, even though I know it's not a good fit for the server. Posted it here to get it out of my system, not making any kind of a point.

[Grinning]

Vampires in Forgotten Realms are awesome. So cool. Unfortunately too many complications to add them to the server. Instead of adding another evil race to the server, give more attention to the current evil population.

[Garn Greymoon]

Check out pathfinders dhampire they did it right regarding playability by players.

Standard Racial Traits

Ability Score Racial Traits: Dhampirs are fast and seductive, but their racial bond to the undead impedes their mortal vigor. They gain +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, and –2 Constitution.

Type: Dhampirs are humanoids with the dhampir subtype.

Size: Dhampirs are Medium creatures and thus have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Base Speed: Dhampirs have a base speed of 30 feet.

Languages: Dhampirs begin play speaking Common. Those with high Intelligence scores can choose any language it wants (except secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Linguistics skill page for more information about these languages.
Defense Racial Traits

Undead Resistance: Dhampirs gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against disease and mind-affecting effects.
Resist Level Drain (Ex): A dhampir takes no penalties from energy drain effects, though he can still be killed if he accrues more negative levels then he has Hit Dice. After 24 hours, any negative levels a dhampir takes are removed without the need for an additional saving throw.
Feat and Skill Racial Traits

Manipulative Dhampire gain a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Perception checks.
Magical Racial Traits

Spell-Like Abilities (Su): A dhampir can use detect undead three times per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability equals the dhampir's class level.
Senses Racial Traits

Darkvision: Dhampir see perfectly in the dark up to 60 feet.
Low-light vision: In addition to their ability to see perfectly in the dark up to 60 ft, dhampir have low-light vision, allowing them to see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Weakness Racial Traits

Light Sensitivity: Dhampirs are dazzled in areas of bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
Negative Energy Affinity: Though a living creature, a dhampir reacts to positive and negative energy as if it were undead—positive energy harms it, while negative energy heals it.

[Moltrazahn]

Hmm. The game already registers if your in an indoor area or not. Maybe one could do the following.

Indoor. No damage per round. Your considered sheltered from the sun so no divine damage.

Outdoor. You take 1 dmg per round. Why 1? Because levelig a vampire would be hell at lower levels. With a low hp pool you could die before the loading screen went away.

Vamp regeneration on hit. Or an ability that gives each weapon a vamp-on-hit. Think dragon warrior weapon enhancement.

Undead? Would they be considered undead? We are in essence talking about a monster subrace being playable. So naturally... we give them the same benefits/disability as they npc counterparts?

Drink blood. A kill on sight ability. Gives you a buff to your hp pool and maybe even a limited time immunity your sunburn. So you can go outside... dr-1 divine or something. If that's even possible. The higher level you are. The longer the duration of the buff.

[chad878262]

there are so many lore appropriate additions we could make... Mountain Orcs, Goblin/hobgoblin, kobold, bugbear, maybe even Ogre/half-ogres. These would be much easier to balance and don't add being an undead as a player option.

[NegInfinity]

I might sound like an ass, but this server has little to no RP enforcement. This goes strictly against what a vampire is, as it requires near constant oversight. It would require quite a few rulings, and as we don't even have one on cosmology (!), I don't see this being a reality.

True, won't argue with that. Haven't ever heard of paladin taking a dm-applied fall, for example.

About ECL: I'm pretty sure that source said ECL+8, for "real" vampire, for a spawn it is ECL +2 or 3, but that being is a slave. Period. Works in a PnP party where you are a vampire+ spawns, but not on a PW.

Care to throw that source to me? Just curious. I was looking at vampire template.

Ecl+8... hmm... With +6 str + 4 dex +2 intwis and +4 cha, I'd say level 1 vampire has a good chance against level 8 enemies. It is not as awesome as "+10 Strength, +10 Dexterity, +10 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, +8 Wisdom, +10 Charisma" some ECL+8 devils had, though.

[Kauaiian]

there are so many lore appropriate additions we could make... Mountain Orcs, Goblin/hobgoblin, kobold, bugbear, maybe even Ogre/half-ogres. These would be much easier to balance and don't add being an undead as a player option.

Star Elves!

[TheLier]

I might sound like an ass, but this server has little to no RP enforcement. This goes strictly against what a vampire is, as it requires near constant oversight. It would require quite a few rulings, and as we don't even have one on cosmology (!), I don't see this being a reality.

True, won't argue with that. Haven't ever heard of paladin taking a dm-applied fall, for example.

About ECL: I'm pretty sure that source said ECL+8, for "real" vampire, for a spawn it is ECL +2 or 3, but that being is a slave. Period. Works in a PnP party where you are a vampire+ spawns, but not on a PW.

Care to throw that source to me? Just curious. I was looking at vampire template.

Ecl+8... hmm... With +6 str + 4 dex +2 intwis and +4 cha, I'd say level 1 vampire has a good chance against level 8 enemies. It is not as awesome as "+10 Strength, +10 Dexterity, +10 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, +8 Wisdom, +10 Charisma" some ECL+8 devils had, though.

The source is on op:

"Level Adjustment
Same as the base creature +8."

CR. is for NPCs, as far as I know, that is +2, however. Like a vampire troll, or ogre.

[Garn Greymoon]

See above for a copy from the d20pfsrd. Add an ECL +1 or 2 and that should be balanced.

[chad878262]

Star Elves!

I don't think Star Elves not being implemented is due to any mechanical issue, but due to a lore/timeline issue. Star Elves had not returned to Faerun until sometime around 3.x edition, but we are technically still in a 1st edition AD&D time (time of troubles is like 6 or 7 years away...)

Not that other races are lore appropriate either, but they came with the base game as opposed to being added manually to the PW.