Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

[V'rass]

As it stands there are people such as myself who would like to run a dual class spellcaster but currently such builds are sub-optimal at best and complete crap at worst. I am told that a mystic theurge class exists already and can be added to a server. I know several other people who wish to see this added so a dual caster can function without being under powered. I would petition to have it added forthwith. If anyone else does please sign.

[gedweyignasia]

You don't need a petition to show that people want this included. Some discussion on how to balance the class would be most useful for the rest of this thread.

[Tsidkenu]

A reminder of what happened last time this was suggested. (see last post esp.)

Let's please avoid that this time.

The base idea presented previously is a reasonable framework for further discussion.

Mystic Theurge

Hit Dice: d4
Base Attack Bonus: Low
Fortitude Save Progression: Low
Reflex Save Progression: Low
Will Save Progression: High

Class Skills:
Concentration (Con), Craft Alchemy (Int), Craft Armors (Int), Craft Weapons (Int), Lore (arcana) (Int), Lore (religion) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor ProficiencyMystic theurges gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Spells per Day:
Level 1: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression
Level 2: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression, +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 3: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression
Level 4: +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 5: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression
Level 6: +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 7: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression
Level 8: +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 9: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression, +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 10: +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression

Practiced Spell Caster (Mystic Theurge):
(Gained on level one) Your caster level for the chosen two spellcasting class increases by +4. This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain noncaster-level HD you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus.

Requirements:
- Classes: Cannot have any other prestige class.

- Skills:
Lore (arcana) 8 ranks, Lore (religion) 8 ranks.

- Spells:
Able to cast 1st-level divine spells and 1st-level arcane spells.

[PotionPeddler]

Would that stack with Practiced caster Wizard/Cleric (of what ever arcane/divine class you had) granting a total of 24 cl in both?
Seems a little low considering it is locked into only having those three classes

[Tsidkenu]

Divine Class 10/ Arcane Class 10/ Mystic Theurge 10 is not the only possible combination. You don't have to have 24 CL in each class.

Eg. Cler 3/ Wiz 7/ MT 10/ Hie 10

That would be a CL 30 cleric and CL 21 Wizard with access to 9th level spells for both classes.

You could go the other way with Archmage as well:

Wiz 3/ Cler 7/ MT 10/ AM 10

CL 30 wizard and CL 21 cleric; and with so many spell slots available from cleric, taking Spell Power 3 won't make much of an impact on your wizard spellbook.

If we're going to make MT a thing I think it is only more than reasonable to expect at least one of the caster classes to be significantly lacking. The real balance question is by how much?

[PotionPeddler]

Requirements:
- Classes: Cannot have any other prestige class.

Does that only apply to before taking the class then? If you made it apply at all times I think that would be a great step towards balancing the class. Jack of all trades/magics master of none?

[Tsidkenu]

It's just a suggestion from the previous thread. That restriction does not have to apply, necessarily. I'm just showing a range of higher CL possibilities with the class. Kaedrin's base class does not have such a restriction.

[Kauaiian]

While I love the idea in it's form and something similar I have lined up for my own PC (RP wise), the mechanical aspects frighten me a bit, mainly because of how strong casters can be and tie that in with divine buffs and healing, oh my. Not to mention if taken with Druid (or Plant domain), they'd have access to +5 AC in all forms except dodge, as well as +5 weaponry.

As I said, I love the idea, but do think the class should be restricted a bit more. Perhaps a vow similar to Sacred Fist, wherein no weapons, shields or armor could be used due to their dedicated pursuit of the arcane and divine, or just shields and armor so they could take advantage of CE/ICE.

Just throwing this out there, but making it a PRC selectable by a few faiths ONLY, would reduce the number as well. Deities of magic, knowledge, mysticism or shamanism would make sense.

Just my two cents.

[chad878262]

I'm against allowing a CL30 caster to also have level 9 spells in the other caster type, but I love this class. From a balance perspective the max you should be able to hit with CL30 in one class is level 4 or 5 spells in the other. Getting level 9 on both spell types is extremely powerful, even with dispels. Sorceror/spirit shaman would be a beast as an aasimar w/16wis and max cha. I like the way it's set up, but I also like the "no other prc's" rule. The best you can do (I think) is 16/4/10 with regular PSC hitting CL30/18 but the 18 would only have level 7 spells, which is maybe a little high... After all, why be a CL30 when you can be that and also cast level 7 spells of the other type? Getting level 8 spells can still land you at CL29, 27 and you have level 9 of both. I think it should be reduced a bit.

[Valefort]

I assume that MT builds would want :

• 28+ CL in the major casting class and less in the other, anything else should be less powerful than these builds because dispels would be too much of a nuisance.
• 12+ progression in the minor class because anything below level 6 spells seems underwhelming (but I may be wrong here)

Let's say MT gives n/10 progression in both casting classes.

Let's note M the number of levels in the major spellcasting class.

Let's note m the number of levels in the minor spellcasting class.

Hidden: show

Practiced spellcaster gives +4 CL and taking that feat for both casting classes seem like a must.

You only have one PRC left to take and at most it will give you +3CL, Hierophant, Archmage, shadow adept. Hence :

Progression for the major class : M+n

CL for the major class : M+n+4(PSC)+3 (spellpower)

Progression for the minor class : m+n

CL for the minor class : m+n+4(PSC)

You want ..

M+n >= 20 (to get the full casting progression in the major casting class)
M+n+7 >= 28 (to not be dispelled easily on the major casting class)

=> M+n >=21

m+n >= 12

We have M+m+10 =30 (total number of levels), so M+m = 20

3=<M=<17
3=<m=<M

Hence m+n >=12 <=> 20-M+n>=12
<=> 8+n >= M

So we got a bunch of inequalities to verify :

M+n >= 21 (1)
8+n >= M (2)
1 =< n =< 10 (3)
3 =< M =< 27 (4)

There are not that many possibilities so let's take a look :

1. If M=17, m=3, n= 10/9
   
   Full progression and CL 33 for the major, 13-12 progression for the minor
2. M=16, m=4, n=10/9/8
   
   Full progression and CL 33-31 for the major, 14-12 progression for the minor
3. M=15, m=5, n=10/9/8/7
   
   Full progression and CL 32-29 for the major, 15-12 progression for the minor
4. M=14, m=6, n=10/9/8/7 (because M+n >=21)
   
   Full progression and CL 31-28 for the major, 16-13 progression for the minor
5. M=13, m=7, n=10/9/8
   
   Full progression and CL 30-28 for the major, 17-15 progression for the minor
6. M=12, m=8, n=10/9
   
   Full progression and CL 29-28 for the major, 18-17 progression for the minor
7. M=11, m=9, n=10
   
   Full progression and CL 28 for the major, 19 progression for the minor

So a first thing to note is the progression for MT should be something between 7 and 10.

Possibilities 5,6,7 seem too powerful to me so progression given by MT should not be 10, 9 or 8, which leaves only 7 and thus .. two possibilities :

• M=15, m=5, n=7
  
  Full progression and CL 29 for the major, 12 progression for the minor
• M=14, m=6, n=7
  
  Full progression and CL 28 for the major, 13 progression for the minor

Which seems somewhat okay at first glance.

[Storm Munin]

Then again a cleric10/wiz10/AM10 without further tinkering (AM6 and levels of some CL boost class, no wiz10 doesnt hit the AM requirements) hits:

CL27 arcana and CL14 divine (With practised caster feats), so what would be the overall gain of the suggested class?


I liked the idea of the noarmor suggestion (from sacred fist) above as well as limiting the deities to those involved in arcana, its a mystic after all.


Edit: thanks for the clarification Valefort.

/M

[Valefort]

The gain would be in the spellcasting progression of the minor class (the two possibilities I pointed would have CL 16-17 with practiced), they would go from level 5 to level 7 spells maximum.

[Deathgrowl]

I opened a thread on the QC forums to debate the potential balance concerns and solutions regarding this PRC.

[Kauaiian]

I opened a thread on the QC forums to debate the potential balance concerns and solutions regarding this PRC.

While not completely tied to a Mystic Theurge, the requirements of the Dweomerkeeper PRC specifically the domain requirement of Magic, severely impacting the widespread use of the PRC. Maybe it can inspire

[Convolutedline]

Hi!

Tl;drA theurgist would most likely be troubled by a lack of sustaining - after multiple tries. In my writing I include different servers approaches to the Theurgist build concept an my personal take of it. Please PM for questions - I love this concept. A review of this writing I believe allowing simultaneous caster progression at cost of bonus feats or turn undead, spell changing ability... etc.. Or limitation of that mold as this reasoning is scoped from understanding of cleric/wizard only. I really appreciate everyone who played with me through all of these builds as I had a lot of fun but, many times I was very bothered by how I really couldn't sustain myself due to spell caster limit / spells... As really a problem is if leveling each class simultaneously here - it really makes you a subpar caster.. I've found most effective is to level one class as I've done with my theurge trickster an then level the other...

So, from this I am leaning to equal development especially because is low magic server an spell benefiting items are really tough to get.. Also from what I've noticed at auction is the inflation of price for anagrys an such from when I started playing several years ago... 25bags lol what x.x

I love mystic theurge - I've tried building one here several times an it just never works later.. Due to dispels or lack of ability to sustain as a mystic theurge rp is generally very weak. an such. I tried an arcane trickster an that worked well so I combined the two ideas...


Really from my current build I've done better as a max ranged trickster with final levels being cleric so it'll be 17 /10 / 3 [wizard/trickster / cleric / rogue] I tried cleric / wizardtrickster / rogue an it was not so good - I don't recall why so much.. I think I really rely on the sneak attacks for sustaining usefulness in fights with current build.

The point of this is I found the best way to cope without the prc is to develop an pseudo version.. Giving me lvl 5 cleric spells end game and lvl 9 wizard spells earlier.. This has allowed me to sustain.. My death rate is so much lower with this prc an I can handle situations I generally couldn't otherwise... This also invariably is why I chose to take epic mass heal so early because .. Currently I have lvl 3 spells an.. Am wearing two bone rings hehe [never dying to death +bagillion saves yay]



From my experience with two different servers people approached this multiple ways.

Trinity approach choose one class to gain spells known / per day and advance both classes spell level.. gain bonus feat at lvl 10 [max level of prc] I've done that an, it works pretty good so far..

[no bonus wizard feats an I'm not sure about turn undead, its all modded there as well.]

Sigils approach advance both classes equally but, lose special traits of each individual class i.e. turn undead levels, bonus feats for wizard levels an the like.. So the focus would be more knowledge as is the roleplay from my understanding of mystic theurge.

[no bonus wizard feats an I'm not sure about turn undead, its all modded there as well.]

Its really a toss up to me as what would be best as I write this. Turn undead an such isn't really so useful without dedication an what mystic theurge would put points into charisma given the nature of their build.. I suppose if they were a sorcerer / cleric, but, a mystic theurge is about knowledge right, an sorcerer's don't really pursue the knowledge so much as their naturalization of magic.. The loss of feats/spell like abilities would really tilt the mystic theurge into their prc defined role more due to necessity of build structure.. Like - very unlikely could be an "undead hunter" though I am sure to whatever capacity every sort of strict prc can which is sort of the greatness about dnd just.. like.. No devastating critical #nwn1 plox


This would allow a mystic theurge to put spells into divine power an such being more versatile - really calling on the powers of deities due to necessity as... Really my trickster can solo but, it requires a lot of planning... Which I think is fitting .. of a "mystic theurge trickster" [though realistically a mystic theurge probably won't do much damage with divine power but, you know... its sorta there.]

Generally what would be most problematic for a theurgist here is spells per day... I have all spell per day gear equipped to almost every slot an if I didn't have sneak attacks it'd be really difficult, like - I been thinking a theurgist to solo would also need thaumaturgist or tech smith of gond, or like... It really would be difficult to fit fighter levels in or whatever... just because its like, a theurgist build can do a lot but, not often. i.e. every spell counts. I find the scope of a theurge allows for advancing into generally untreaded areas by a person of one profession focus or another.. It like - bridges adventure gaps. Though - this also again is difficult for theurge to venture to these places alone as even with theurge or thaumaturgist it would be unlikely that a theurge would have the feats available to develop summoning with feats...


So, even on trinity - I have all spells per day gear [even with free resting wherever]

I suppose after reviewing what I wrote best route would probably be a loss of bonus feats and turn undead [which turn undead would most likely be irrelevent regardless] for spells per day an such... Is my best guess as a cursory casual who tries to build this all the time with most recently moderate success.. Yay sneak attacks.

Or the pick one class to be very skilled at so that a true theurge would then put their remaining levels into wizard for maybe bonus feats or cleric for ... I have no idea.. but that would be more dynamic of the idea... though I'm not sure who would want level 3 spells maybe an arcane archer or like? A frost mage with higher spell level? I dunnoooooooooooo


ok Thanks for reading an I hope at one point mystic theurge becomes reaaalized here!

also make all lower level spells purchasable thanks plox bye :3