Opening up Arcane Trickster for divine casters?

[Storm Munin]

I suggest we open up the Arcane Trickster class for divine casters.

No other change then allowing divine spellcasters to take the class when they have meet the requirements of lore arcana 7 disable device 7 tumble 7 spellcraft 4 and can cast 1 3rd level divine spell or higher. EDIT: of course the 2d6 sneak dice as well.


Why?
Currently there are no viable way to make a high CL divine caster with decent rogue talents.

The closest that can be made include Assassin 8 and Hierophant 6, but that is no rogue is it?
It is an Assassin with CL29 that are skill crippled even if you drop WIS or CHA in favor of INT.

Ok next then?
Cleric Hierophant Rogue3 Black flame zealot 9, CL30 but only 5d6 of sneak dice and its crippled in the skill department.
As well, by prestige class description your deity must be dark and destructive.

Arcane Trickster of itself offer few solid ways to powerdom and it gets the job done without the workload of inventing another class to do the same thing.
The only things needed to be tinkered with to allow it should be allowing divine casters to take the class given the prerequisites and when that casting tree is taken the spell progression moves on.
The mechanics for that are already there in the Dragonslayer class.

Thus I want a discussion over if my suggestion is a viable option for the server.

/M

[V'rass]

Sounds good.

[Valefort]

What would be the drawbacks of a cleric 16/ AT 10/rogue 4 compared to a cleric 30 ?

Virtually none, except for DC casters, only gains otherwise.

I'm afraid divine power stands in the way of most nice things for clerics.

[Calodan]

'm afraid divine power stands in the way of most nice things for clerics.

There are a few options with this. We can eliminate one of the bonuses it gives. Either the boost to FULL BAB. (I would prefer to keep this one) Or eliminate the +6 STR (Would prefer this be eliminated since clerics have access to bulls str). Or we can make level 20 Divine Power Scrolls available for purchase in shops and introduce items that give the ability to use Divine Power level 20 so everyone has access to this wonderful spell as well. Then we can seriously consider letting more cleric nice things happen yes?

[chad878262]

The +6 STR is gravy, the full bab is the reason people cast it. There have been discussions in the past about nerfing/removing divine power, but they never go anywhere. It would, however solve a LOT of balance issues if it were removed or possibly changed to be something more akin to Tensers....

[Eclypticon]

I think we should fix the divine sneak PrC we have first before considering this. Black Flame Zealot needs a lot of love.

Part of the problem is how we are going to balance all future instances of casting classes. I suspect that many people are using certain classes less than once before do to new mechanical limitations introduced by out dispel fix and raised dispel cap.

Something like a divine arcane trickster might be a good idea if we cannot address some of the issues though. We might as well drop the 2d6 SA requirement to 1d6 SA like on some other servers too.

[Flasmix]

What spells can divines use to get sneak attack with? I can only think of Searing Light.

[Storm Munin]

As for what a cleric sacrifice with AT its turning dice stand out.

What does a wizard or sorcerer sacrifice?
Nothing.
Pure gain of BAB, sneak dice and caster levels taking the class with a lot of spells supporting RTA.


Concerning divine RTA spells I am somewhat sure one domain or another do offer such a spell somewhere, also do not discount the reserve feats and the like when considering that aspect.

Perhaps it should be wise to limit the AT option to those divine spellcasters gaining their divine spellpower from deities associated with rogues and tricksters?


How would this impact blackguard btw?
I did not consider that one prior to initial post.

/M

[chad878262]

AT is a LOW BAB class, so no gain there. However, here is what a Wiz sacrifices:

Either they get Hips as well as SA dice (max CL is now 28 if going W14/AT10/R3/SD3) or they don't have HiPS (W16/AT10/R4) w/ CL30. However, W26/SD4 is better than all of these with higher DC spells vs. low damage (even with a little SA bonus) RTA's.

The problem, as I see it with Cleric/R/AT (or divine trickster, if you prefer) is as valefort said. Low BAB means nothing to them due to divine power. It is essentially gaining sneak attack damage and can be a top tier feinter, no HiPS required because it can wear Full Plate, buff bluff with Greater Heroism, items, whatever and basically be a wrecking ball of buff and bash with Expose Weakness, Feint for landing sneak attacks, high saves, etc. On top of all of this it can also go for EDM with synergy since charisma will increase the bluff score.

edit: I would love a sneak/rogue oriented cleric PRC, but I'm not sure AT is the right one for it.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

The +6 STR is gravy, the full bab is the reason people cast it. There have been discussions in the past about nerfing/removing divine power, but they never go anywhere. It would, however solve a LOT of balance issues if it were removed or possibly changed to be something more akin to Tensers....

This is some really good points. Anyways has the OP checked out Harper Agent? 4/5 cl progression and adds a bunch of skill points. Combine it with black flame Zealot on an orc with the spirit Shaman base class and you would be a real snowflake.

[NegInfinity]

Could've sworn there's already a sneaky class for diviners:
http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Divine_Seeker

[Tsidkenu]

Not with 10/10 spell progression like MT has. And Black Flame Zealot is baaaaaad.

[NegInfinity]

Not with 10/10 spell progression like MT has. And Black Flame Zealot is baaaaaad.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to start a differnet prc for diviners?

I mean, AT is alignment-restricted (and should stay that way).

Actually, I googled a bit, and found a terrifying alternative:

http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Sacred_Outlaw

Maybe something along those lines could be turned into a prc?

[Theodore01]

Just improve the Black Flame Zealot class as was discussed before.

[Storm Munin]

Divine seeker has 0/5 spell progression, also available to wizards btw.
But yeah id actually use that class, like I already have on multiple toons.

All possible to make a sorc fullplate edm AT build as is.


Is it really down to the divine power spell?
Exactly how are this one spell doing better then the buff spell might of the arcane options?

Once working id say righteous smite would be a far better glass canon.
+15 Enchantment bonus...