Assassin/Blackguard Spellbook

[Akroma666]

So, because of the dispelled fix.. These spells are basically worthless late game and susceptible to dispell. I was wondering if Therese were intended to be spells derived from normal magiceans, or enhanced abilities?

My proposed change is to switch these to be based on character level instead of caster level. Prevents dispel.

[NegInfinity]

So, because of the dispelled fix.. These spells are basically worthless late game and susceptible to dispell. I was wondering if Therese were intended to be spells derived from normal magiceans, or enhanced abilities?

My proposed change is to switch these to be based on character level instead of caster level. Prevents dispel.

Meaning with just 3 levels of blackguard or assassin you'll be able to cast 30 minute long buffs?
Or that with 1 level of blackguard at level 18 you'll suddenly become 18cl caster straight off the bat? That sounds extremely unfair pretty much to everybody.

If you need more CL you should be taking more levels or using PRCs and practiced spellcaster to boost the caster level further.

[Akroma666]

The problem I have is, I have 8 levels going on ten.. But it won't make a difference because it will always cap at CL 10 and then be worthless late game vs dispel. Its already a limited book, it needs something..

[RamenKing]

I think I read some where that Rasael is overhauling the assassin spellbook. Ill try to find the post for confirmation.

[mrm3ntalist]

What is the difference between assassin9 and any low cl build?

Do we need to do the same for every low CL build with classes such as paladin8, ranger8, wizard8, FS8 etc?

[NegInfinity]

The problem I have is, I have 8 levels going on ten.. But it won't make a difference because it will always cap at CL 10 and then be worthless late game vs dispel. Its already a limited book, it needs something..

What about qualifying for PrCs instead? Is assassin/eldritch knight possible, for example? Or assassin/arcane trickster?

Here's the full list of spells an assassin is supposed to have:

1st Level
disguise self, detect poison, feather fall, ghost sound, jump, obscuring mist, sleep, true strike.

2nd Level
alter self, cat’s grace, darkness, fox’s cunning, illusory script, invisibility, pass without trace, spider climb, undetectable alignment.

3rd Level
deep slumber, deeper darkness, false life, magic circle against good, misdirection, nondetection.

4th Level
clairaudience/clairvoyance, dimension door, freedom of movement, glibness, greater invisibility, locate creature, modify memory, poison.

And here's full list of blackguard spells:

Blackguard Spell List
Blackguards choose their spells from the following list:

1st Level
cause fear, corrupt weapon, cure light wounds, doom, inflict light wounds, magic weapon, summon monster I*.

2nd Level
bull’s strength, cure moderate wounds, darkness, death knell, eagle’s splendor, inflict moderate wounds, shatter, summon monster II*.

3rd Level
contagion, cure serious wounds, deeper darkness, inflict serious wounds, protection from energy, summon monster III*.

4th Level
cure critical wounds, freedom of movement, inflict critical wounds, poison, summon monster IV*.

Basically, those are not prime time casters.

You should be able to boost your caster level via PRC, but "use HD for CL" would be a definite no (because you can also roll cleric/blacckguard, wizard/assassin, etc). If you want more magic, there are other classes available.

[mrm3ntalist]

What about qualifying for PrCs instead? Is assassin/eldritch knight possible, for example? Or assassin/arcane trickster?

Thats what i think we should do, more PRCs that progress assassin. Its something that will go along with the reasons why the dispel fix was implemented.

Increasing the CL in ways such as the OP mentioned, goes against the reasons of why the dispel fix was needed.

[Akroma666]

I guess my fundamental question is, are these actually magic in the lore? Or harnising of skills like a spell like ability?
The assassin seems very skill based with their invisibility, cats grace, poison, etc..
I just figured it more as spell like abilities than actual spells tapping into the weave.

Can anyone lorenazi me?

[NegInfinity]

I guess my fundamental question is, are these actually magic in the lore? Or harnising of skills like a spell like ability?
The assassin seems very skill based with their invisibility, cats grace, poison, etc..
I just figured it more as spell like abilities than actual spells tapping into the weave.

Can anyone lorenazi me?

Spell-like abilities are magic. They work exactly like spells.
Assassin's magic is magic - it is arcane spells. Assassin's ability to hide is ALSO a supernatural ability. Meaning magic. Shadowdancer's hips is also magical ability.

The only non-magical sneaker is ranger, whose ability to hide is Extraordinary and not supernatural.

Blackguard spells are granted by patron god.

Speaking of which Blakcguard is supposed to have a spellbook, and prepare/cast spells in advance just like a cleric.

[Akroma666]

I think I read some where that Rasael is overhauling the assassin spellbook. Ill try to find the post for confirmation.

I guess we need this then^

To me the class is for sneak and death attack. Making anything out of the spellbook seems to be a waste with our current PRC options.

You never had to worry about being dispelled constantly in PNP.. Sucks its so frequent now.

[Marathados]

I actually concur with Akroma. What is the point of the spells from these classes, when they can not be used effectively?

[chad878262]

I like the idea of opening other PRC's to progress Assassin/Blackguard, but it's still not a true fix. Even something like EK and AT being added makes the max Assassin CL 28 since you have to take a minimum of 6 levels in something else w/ hide/ms/tumble in order to qualify. BG requires BAB +6 and 5 in hide so at best you are looking at level 7 (probably more due to the lack of high BAB classes with stealth that have synergy with BG), so max BG CL is 27... Certainly an improvement, but still dispellable and probably not worth what you lose taking those other classes. Heck, I would just as soon make Assassin / Blackguard simply stack with Arcane/Divine spellcasting if those other classes are present. If we consider that both get up to 4 levels of spells, that equates to CL8 (because they can get more than 1 level 4 spell), so it might be worth considering making Assassin and BG give progression similar to what Sacred Fist gets. (8/10) If possible though, they should not require a spell casting class in order to access the spells. So, for instance if you built a Fighter20/BG10 you would have a divine caster level of 8 (12 w/ PSC) and be able to cast up to 4th level cleric spells, but if instead you went with Cleric/BG you could theoretically take all 10 levels, possibly some other divine PRC without full progression and still reach CL30 divine.

Not sure as I think it may be OP to do it this way, but I don't see building a BG or Assassin with other spell progression PRC's as a real 'fix' either since in epic areas they are still going to get dispelled a fairly significant amount of the time, especially Blackguard with no HiPS and max CL of 27.

[NegInfinity]

I like the idea of opening other PRC's to progress Assassin/Blackguard, but it's still not a true fix. Even something like EK and AT being added makes the max Assassin CL 28 since you have to take a minimum of 6 levels in something else w/ hide/ms/tumble in order to qualify. BG requires BAB +6 and 5 in hide so at best you are looking at level 7 (probably more due to the lack of high BAB classes with stealth that have synergy with BG), so max BG CL is 27... Certainly an improvement, but still dispellable and probably not worth what you lose taking those other classes. Heck, I would just as soon make Assassin / Blackguard simply stack with Arcane/Divine spellcasting if those other classes are present. If we consider that both get up to 4 levels of spells, that equates to CL8 (because they can get more than 1 level 4 spell), so it might be worth considering making Assassin and BG give progression similar to what Sacred Fist gets. (8/10) If possible though, they should not require a spell casting class in order to access the spells. So, for instance if you built a Fighter20/BG10 you would have a divine caster level of 8 (12 w/ PSC) and be able to cast up to 4th level cleric spells, but if instead you went with Cleric/BG you could theoretically take all 10 levels, possibly some other divine PRC without full progression and still reach CL30 divine.

Not sure as I think it may be OP to do it this way, but I don't see building a BG or Assassin with other spell progression PRC's as a real 'fix' either since in epic areas they are still going to get dispelled a fairly significant amount of the time, especially Blackguard with no HiPS and max CL of 27.

Would be nice to run the numbers. 27 CL being seen as "unacceptable" looks a bit strage. Getting to level 30 takes quite a lot of time, and by that time the player is very likely to find 3 or maybe even +4 item instead of relying on buffs.

Also, if you open up those classes to normal progression, then everybody will take them, and every wizard might become an assassin. Those classes are not supposed to be prime time casters so being able to reah cl 27 should be more than enough.

[chad878262]

The numbers look like this for Greater dispel vs. CL27

DC = 11+27 = 38

Dispel roll = d20 + 20, so an 18, 19 or 20 dispels the character. 15% is not bad, until you get hit with three mobs at once that cast greater dispel at you. I do a lot of testing with my bard, who happens to be level 27 and, on average if I get hit with 3 greater dispels I lose 2-4 buff spells, which is rough when it drops the wrong buff in the wrong location.

I agree that Assassin or BG are not pure casters, but as was pointed out D&D also wasn't designed with the thought in mind that you might get hit with a breach and 6 dispels within 5 encounters if you aren't lucky.

I don't necessarily see much, if anything being done with Assassin/BG in the short term as it isn't like either PRC is 'under used' as it is so they must not be too underpowered...

[NegInfinity]

The numbers look like this for Greater dispel vs. CL27

DC = 11+27 = 38

Dispel roll = d20 + 20, so an 18, 19 or 20 dispels the character. 15% is not bad, until you get hit with three mobs at once that cast greater dispel at you. I do a lot of testing with my bard, who happens to be level 27 and, on average if I get hit with 3 greater dispels I lose 2-4 buff spells, which is rough when it drops the wrong buff in the wrong location.

I agree that Assassin or BG are not pure casters, but as was pointed out D&D also wasn't designed with the thought in mind that you might get hit with a breach and 6 dispels within 5 encounters if you aren't lucky.

I don't necessarily see much, if anything being done with Assassin/BG in the short term as it isn't like either PRC is 'under used' as it is so they must not be too underpowered...

IMO wanting to be immune to dispels as assassin/blackguard (or any other class) is asking too much.

The classes are quite powerful, it is just that their primary strength is not magic.