northlander hewing

[aaron22]

i have a strength based, two weapon, oversized weapon fighter. is nothlander hewing a feat worth using on that style of character?

is there a parser that works with this game to help me test things like this on my own?

[chad878262]

It depends on the build... I tested this feat in QC many moons ago, and I am not sure if my suggestions made it in (i.e. during testing half your attacks rounded down and I recommended they should perhaps round up along with a couple other minor tweaks).

Simply put, if you have high enough AB that all of your attacks (or most all) are going to hit you might average more damage without, especially with IPA. However, if your AB is such that against a specific enemy only your first flurry is likely to hit you only gain from using this feat since your damage roll is maxed.

So using a Great Axe instead of 1-12 times 6 APR you do 12 damage 3 APR. Average damage for Great Axe is 6.5 so if you land 6 attacks that's 39 damage vs. 36 using Northlander Hewing. In general most melee builds (or any build) can assume the last attack will usually miss, so if you assume only 5 of the 6 attacks land average damage is 32.5 vs. 36 with Northlander Hewing.

It is a decent feat for an IPA using, Two hander barbarian/warrior type of build, but it hurts your defense and AB (-2 dodge AC, -2 AB). However, when you consider the RNG that average 6.5 damage on a 1-12 roll is probably being a bit generous, which makes the feat more appealing. I hope this helps...

In regards to self testing, JEGS can test some things, but it is not perfectly matched to the server. There have been discussions about upgrading it to correctly match the server, but I doubt it is a priority currently. AoS or Rasael might know more...

****EDIT**** I should probably add that with IPA the numbers become a bit more complicated (moreso if your build has Frenzied Berserker) since if you would hit on attack 4, 5 and 6 that adds an additional 12 (or 20) damage when using a weapon two handed. So at that point, even if you compare 4 hits with IPA and no Northlander hewing against 3 hits with it would look like this:

Without Northlander Hewing:
(6.5+12) * 4 = 74

With Hewing:
(12+12) * 3 = 72

This doesn't account for additional things such as enchantment or strength bonus, bonus damage on weapon, etc... but as you can imagine, for every static bonus you have the damage will further go in favor of not using Northlander Hewing... So the value as you gain more levels is probably going to be a bit lacking.

[aaron22]

are those figures including the strength damage bonus applied as bludgeoning while using NH.

i guess there is some confusion with me in the explanation of this feat regarding that aspect of it as well. is my strength bonus applied twice? once for the weapons damage type and another as an additional bludgeoning?

[Theodore01]

It's great as long as you only have one attack.
As you get more more attacks, it is not scaling well enough.
The loss of half your attacks is too painful for the slightly increased damage.

As i understand it, only the base damage from a weapon is maxed. (1d12 greataxe -> 12).
Most other damage (from str/feats) is already added on top of that, so the feat does not help here.
(Maybe it maxes additional dam. sources like fire, haven't tested that.)

And if your fighter has trouble hitting, then he is doomed anyway


It really needs to scale much more to be useful later on.

Yes your str bonus is applied as usual and extra as bludg dam.

[chad878262]

are those figures including the strength damage bonus applied as bludgeoning while using NH.

i guess there is some confusion with me in the explanation of this feat regarding that aspect of it as well. is my strength bonus applied twice? once for the weapons damage type and another as an additional bludgeoning?

Ah, thanks for reminding me, I forgot about that part (and it is important!) Obviously no, it is not in those numbers and it does point them in favor of using the feat since yes, you do get strength applied twice. However, I do not recall if using two hands applies (1.5*strength) * 2 or if it is (1.5 * strength) + base strength for NLH...

So for example....

NLH w/ 3 attacks / round (assuming 50% of 6 attacks), +10 STR Bonus, +12 from IPA using Great Axe if all three attacks hit:

damage =36 (wpn dmg) + 45 (STR bonus of 15) + 30 (assuming only giving base STR as bludgeoning dmg) + 36 (IPA) = 147 with mundane weapon...

without NLH, assuming 5 of 6 attacks hit:

damage = 32.5 (wpn dmg) + 75 (STR bonus) + 60 (IPA) = 167.5

So as I said originally, if you will hit with most or all attacks NLH is not worth it... In the case above if you only hit with 4 of 6 attacks the damage would be 134, making NLH superior. However, if you throw in another 6.5 damage per hit (+4 EB, 1-4 bonus damage per hit) then even with 4 hits you will outperform NLH. So as you gain levels (and improve your equipment!) it becomes a net loss in both damage and definitely not worth it... However, when you only have 4 attacks / round and usually only land two, it's probably nice to do max damage ...

Again, this is making some assumptions such as how much bludgeoning STR damage is added (is it 1.0 or 1.5?) but at least should give you an idea of how it works.

[Shad]

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect the bonus/maximized damage is not multiplied on crits.

[aaron22]

trouble hitting is somewhat relative. math is not exact without 3rd party compiler parser to help me keep track. since i am pretty low level, if i stack several debuffs on my PC i will likely fall under 50% hit rate. and then cut the number of attacks in half rounded down. yikes

i will have to spend a few hours tonight testing this. i hope i can figure out how to properly do that with what we have for combat log data

[chad878262]

Well, remember each subsequent attack is at -5, so if you have 4 attacks and your AB is +16, it goes +16/+11/+6/+1... you'd be losing the attacks at +6, +1...

[Akroma666]

Does the ability work with Flurry of Blows?

[Tsidkenu]

It's a great feat but I think something is bugged with the damage calculation because it certainly does not multiply on a critical hit.

I had a test Cavalier with 42 STR and I was doing 48 flat damage per hit with IPA on, and mid 60ish on criticals.

[taylorstar]

It certainly works with Many-shot as far as I can tell defiantly making it worthwhile if your not hitting every shot.

[chad878262]

It certainly works with Many-shot as far as I can tell defiantly making it worthwhile if your not hitting every shot.

Well I'm pretty sure that is a bug since it is not supposed to be an archery feat...

[Tantive]

It certainly works with Many-shot as far as I can tell defiantly making it worthwhile if your not hitting every shot.

Well I'm pretty sure that is a bug since it is not supposed to be an archery feat...

Nonsense, its a hand held ballista.

[BronaStormbrew]

What about with whirlwind? I was actually really curious about that. Trading out attacks you weren't going to use anyway (one whirlwind=full round) seems like an insanely good deal, and possibly well, OP.