Good, lawful al. shift from actions to balance chaotic, evil

[Shad]

I'd suggest for QC to discuss possible spells/actions that would give a slight chance to shift to good, lawful or lawful-good. Because we, I see, really have several spells that does opposite, so these naturally expected to be.

For example, healing other, resurrection spells - as good, shield other - as lawful good. Smite infidel, some summons. Etc.

Or add it to some NPC quest answers.

What do you think?

[Blackman D]

no because its exploitable and a lot of things that use to have alignment shifting have been removed for that reason, apparently somethings after that happened were added that shift alignments but there really shouldnt be

people were using it to get around certain class combinations because of alignment restrictions

[freekender]

I think it is a good idea, but I would go a step further. Why "paste" evil and chaotic for one side and good and lawful for the other?

I would suggest to make spells to only change the alignment in the good-evil axis or in the law-chaos one. Or, at least, make spells that change aligment towards chaotic good or lawful evil too. Just my two cents.

no because its exploitable and a lot of things that use to have alignment shifting have been removed for that reason, apparently somethings after that happened were added that shift alignments but there really shouldnt be

people were using it to get around certain class combinations because of alignment restrictions

Why not make those class combos that require aligmnment shift to need DM approval? Or, if they are not wanted on the server (because of powerbuilds, exploits and so), make them illegal.

That, or eliminate all alignment shifts from spells. IMO it is pretty unbalanced to have only alignment shift towards chaotic evil.

[Blackman D]

its not something that would require a DM, its combos that shouldnt be possible, like making someone with paladin and blackguard levels, starting off as a paladin then shifting yourself to evil to pick up BG so you can claim you are anti paladin, stuff like that

but as far as making them illegal, that is basically why things with alignment shifts were removed, so its not even possible

[Shad]

Exploitable to the same degree as having chaotic-evil shift I must say.
Get enough scrolls/wands of one of these CE shifts, and UMD paladin monstrosity would add blackguard, and LE monk would become CE monk/bard.

So while certain safest way would be not having ANY player-controlled alignment shifts, if once evil ones was introduced, give normal, non-exploiting people a way to maintain their alignment without requiring regular DM intervention.

[Tsidkenu]

Quests used to shift alignments and that feature was removed for the reasons Shad rightly pointed out.

Spells should not do the same (all spells, good, neutral or evil). Alignment shifts should be for DMs to decide only.

[Endelyon]

It's probably not a terrible idea, since we've introduced spells (at least a couple) that suffer a small alignment hit towards chaotic and/or evil. The real problem is that there aren't a huge abundance of spells that have the "good" descriptor that are actually accessible to a wizard in the first place, and I don't think any that have the Lawful or Choatic ones.

The only thing I could think of would be perhaps the Gate spell itself offering small shifts based on what alignment of outsider you summon.

[freekender]

It's probably not a terrible idea, since we've introduced spells (at least a couple) that suffer a small alignment hit towards chaotic and/or evil. The real problem is that there aren't a huge abundance of spells that have the "good" descriptor that are actually accessible to a wizard in the first place, and I don't think any that have the Lawful or Choatic ones.

The only thing I could think of would be perhaps the Gate spell itself offering small shifts based on what alignment of outsider you summon.

Other spells could be the ones that can only be casted by paladins. It makes sense that some of these might change the alignment towards good, lawful or both.

[Shad]

Endelyon's very much right. Its mainly Arcane casters/invokers who suffer from CE shifts, so to balance it we should think of Arcane good and lawful spells. And it's not as easy as with divine ones. Is magic all evil?

I suggest, that if CE shifts stay, as per spells/abilities description, then next decision should be made: should players have, in general, means to balance their evil actions to maintain alignment, without DM intervention. If the Team decides they should, QC would work out details.

[Storm Munin]

I believe all current spells changing alignment (toward chaotic evil) are described as being [EVIL], as such I have no qualms leaving unfortunate toons lost to evil and chaos at the mercy of the DMs to avail their ailment.
They after all choose to have their toons use those spells, with the predictable result.

However, should the player base and administrators decide the possible mechanical exploiting of spells to move back and forth in alignment are desired that is quite fine with me as well.

/M

[Steve]

Only DMs should be changing Alignment points, and only after CHARACTERS make actions, that would warrant a shift.

Context about alignments shifts can be found here.

Spells that shift Alignment points are questionable, in my opinion, because within this game of NWN2, our Characters are far too often casting spells, especially epic and top tier spells, with little consequence, to how they were designed to be special magic and rare magic in classic D&D.

[Valefort]

Alternatively an NPC could be added in the Nexus that allows you, the player, to shift your character's alignement to reflect your deeds ? Maybe something small like 3 points per week. After all DMs can't always be following you. Of course it would palce some trust on players and would not have to be abused (though some things can be done to prevent silly class combos anyway).

[Steve]

Valefort, what you suggest creates a metagamey which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg scenario, in which Characters are played with zero consequence to decisions of morality, if, Players are allowed to OOC Dial-an-Alignment.

This game doesn't even allow my Toons to kill a chicken in the farmlands...so I'd doubly question saying "trust Players to adequately judge their toon's deeds"—the mechanics of the Server limit so much action and RP as it is. What I'm trying to get across here, in my opinion, is that Alignment is a guide for RP, giving direction to actions of a Character, and no mechanical means should shift alignment, simply because, so many mechanical actions are not possible to enact on the Server as it is.

DMs cannot always follow "you," however, the Forums allow for documentation of IC actions that can lead to evidence in which a Player could justify a request from the DMs for an alignment shift, IF that is what a Player really needs to see happen.

But anyway, its just my opinion on it.

[Valefort]

My opinion is pretty much the same, DMs should be the ones doing the alignment shifts, not spells or an NPC.

However if those spells stay the way they are now then I feel it's weird that only spellcasters have their alignment changed to reflect their actions (wether the player spam a spell intentionally or not to change his PC's alignment is not my problem, they deal with their own conscience as far as I'm concerned).

[Steve]

it's weird that only spellcasters have their alignment changed to reflect their actions

Yeah, agreed.